Self Censorship: Our Worst Enemy

[ruben]

.... when a Picasso does come along, the world - by which we mean those "qualified" to judge - usually is too stupid.

As far as I can recall, every significant movement in art and thought has begun by challenging the accepted standards of aesthetics, taste, decency, composition et al. ..........

Cheers, Ian

These words merit to be encrypted in stone.

Fortunately here at RFF we are all equals, and grown, and we should not underestimated the capabilities of each one of us to give critique its propper proportions. "Does this help me ? Fine, let's try. Is this just negative injuring ? Fine, get a life", as Raid said.

Cheers,
Ruben

Hmmm Jocko, you are recovering quite fast. Are you dancing already ?

 

[FrankS]

Quote:
Originally Posted by NB23
Hmmm... No!
The way you are talking, everybody is a Picasso but the world is too stupid to realize it.
Execution, talent and vision must work together. Aesthetics, the elements and composition must dance together.

Lynn:
My point is: these are all a matter of personal insight.
Are we talking knuckle-rapping for breaking rules? My aesthetics are my aesthetics, and I compose my images the way I experience them. My pictures will please some, and - apparantly - depress others. I am delighted by appreciation, and grateful for technical suggestions should they be necessary, but in the end it's still about my perception, and my conviction that I have translated my vision to the best of my ability.
If I'm my own choreographer - and I AM, thank heavens - who's to say I danced wrong?

and:

Quote:
Originally Posted by NB23
Hmmm... No!
The way you are talking, everybody is a Picasso but the world is too stupid to realize it.
Execution, talent and vision must work together. Aesthetics, the elements and composition must dance together.

Ian:
But when a Picasso does come along, the world - by which we mean those "qualified" to judge - usually is too stupid.
As far as I can recall, every significant movement in art and thought has begun by challenging the accepted standards of aesthetics, taste, decency, composition et al. Flatulent clowns are pretty much what the know-all critics saw in "The Rites of Spring". But the last laugh goes to the Stravinskys.
Cheers, Ian


I'm totally with Lynn and Ian here! Most of us have the luxury of being amateurs and doing photography to please ourselves. This is what art is about. Then there is the commercial side of photography where one has to please paying clients. This is not so lofty an endeavour!
Not everyone is a Picasso, but then Picasso and all the great artists didn't become who they became by following the rules imposed by the mediocre masses! Most of us have little hope of becoming a Picasso, but if all we do with our photography is try and please others, then there is no hope of doing so. We must be ourselves and find our own path, where ever that path leads.
You can teach a student the technical aspects of photography, but if you try to teach someone (your) asthetics, the best a student can become is an imitator of his teacher.

 

[foto_fool]

Seasoned and experienced photographers and editors. The same that choose who is and who is NOT a, let's say, Magnum photographer.

Marketability is not the same thing as aesthetics. If I was trying to sell my photos to the editors of Magnum then I would learn to make images to appeal to their sensibilities. Of course, I don't actually posses the talent to do so .

I undersdtand this is only a converssation but photography rules do exist and not everybody sees and use them effectively (the rules include breaking the ruls in an aesthetic way).

Agreed, not everyone is equally skilful or talented. And that there are some very basic principles of design and composition that one risks the ridicule of one's peers and betters by violating.

And that gets to the heart of Reuben's original post. Who are our "peers and betters" here? Are they self-identified? Are they invited? I can't decide what I find more astounding about Reuben's original story: that his 16 year old is such an accomplished critic, or that his 16 year old will talk to him about his photos at all.

Unless explicitly asked to provide criticism I believe we should all self-censor.

- John

 

[pesphoto]

During the day time hours I have a job where I need to please art directors and such. And I feel I do my job well. When Im on my own time I shoot what I please, print what I please and I dont ask for anyone's opinions. If I shoot something I like I print it and either hang it on my wall or it goes in one of my many many boxes of old prints. If someone happens to want to comment on my work I enjoy that but I dont need it to enjoy doing my personal work.

 

[Jocko]

Hmmm Jocko, you are recovering quite fast. Are you dancing already ?

Alas dear Ruben, my tutu hangs limply on the peg There will be no Nutcracker this year

But.... I totally agree that "you can ask, if "I am what I am", why do I want to get critique ? Because if I dare to expose myself I may achieve to be "what I am" even better".

Now assuming that a bad photograph is one which fails to reflect the intentions of the photographer - the expression of his or her self - I suggest a self-criticism thread, in which each of us takes one of our best and most popular pictures and explains why it is an abject failure. That will expose our hearts and help define what we aspire too. I would happily start this process - but not tonight - it's getting late!

Cheers, Ian

 

[ruben]

....
Unless explicitly asked to provide criticism I believe we should all self-censor.

- John

Hi John,

What I am trying to convince ourselves is not a new "golden rule" to be imposed.

I am calling us to change our own attitude, by our own will, towards photo commentaries we post, and mainly about commentaries we don't post, not because the photographer asked not to post, but because of our own self censorship attitude.

We are afraid to be unpolite, we are afraid to hurt, we are afraid of retaliation, WE ARE AFRAID. Too much fear, too much irrationality, too much rationalization of our fear, too much hidding below our beds. This is not the life we deserve.

We deserve to strive towards opening our hearts and be able to sense our brother RFF members needs. We deserve to get a big influx of ideas and emotions in exchange. We deserve to be free from our fears, imprisoning our minds and creativity. We deserve to go forwards.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[ruben]

...........Now assuming that a bad photograph is one which fails to reflect the intentions of the photographer - the expression of his or her self - I suggest a self-criticism thread, in which each of us takes one of our best and most popular pictures and explains why it is an abject failure. That will expose our hearts and help define what we aspire too. I would happily start this process - but not tonight - it's getting late!

Cheers, Ian

This can be part of the process or a good start. Are you ready to hear detailed explanations about why a picture you consider a failure is in other's opinions a great one ?

Are you ready to confront the possibility that little Ian has a great potential ?
It is not as rosy as it sounds, as there are some implications involved, and for sure some shake.

Cheers,
Ruben

PS
Now let's see if you go to bed.

 

[FrankS]

While we are all still learning, people are at different stages. Beginners seek more external validation, while those well on the way are their own best critics. Camera clubs are great for learning photography, but can then quickly become stifling. After learning the "rules", creativity comes from manipulating, bending, and braking them.

Like in that old martial arts TV show: Kung Fu, when the student is finally capable of snatching the pebble from the master's hand, the master says, "It is time for you to go, grasshopper." After a certain point, the best teacher is simply experience and following your own heart.

 

[antiquark]

We are afraid to be unpolite, we are afraid to hurt, we are afraid of retaliation, WE ARE AFRAID. Too much fear, too much irrationality, too much rationalization of our fear, too much hidding below our beds. This is not the life we deserve.

They're only photographs, and not really important in the grand scheme of things.

 

[ruben]

Fred,
You are an anarchist.

I am not, and still feel a great symphaty towards you.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[ruben]

They're only photographs, and not really important in the grand scheme of things.

Derek,

Perhaps it is because of the late hour here, perhaps not. But I don't start to begin understanding what you say. Kindly help me.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[antiquark]

Perhaps it is because of the late hour here, perhaps not. But I don't start to begin understanding what you say. Kindly help me.

Well, yes I'm afraid of insulting someone based on a picture they took. It seems to be too minor of an issue to take the risk that my criticism will be interpreted as an insult.

On the other hand, if I'm confronted with an issue that is important to society, then it's worth it to insult people to get my point across. To make an example up, if someone from the KKK started posting here, I wouldn't be afraid of letting them know my opinion.

 

[foto_fool]

Ruben - You describe an existential angst that I do not share. I am polite not out of fear but because I choose to be polite. I don't criticise because I am not an expert. However, I am qualified to say "I like/don't like this picture because..." And here is where I will register a fear: "better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt" - no?

In real life I grow grapes, make and sell wine. I am enough of an expert to be paid - and very well-paid, thank you - to stick my nose in another winemaker's glass and say something like "sulfide problem, volatile acidity too high, you are buying cheap grapes and expecting to make a First Growth, and your barrel care regime is a total failure - here's how to fix it". If I am not being paid, I smile and say nothing more then "nice job" when someone sticks a glass under my nose.

When Famous Wine Writer X reviews my wine it matters. When Joe Blow Self-Styled Wine Expert comes through my door and renders an opinion, it does not - except to the extent that I make a sale or not. Like Fred says.

- John

 

[M. Valdemar]

I'm absolutely sure that if I completely and freely expressed my thoughts/critiques pertaining to the images and posts of many people here, it would not be well received.

If I didn't censor myself, I would offer high praise for some, and ridicule for many. Many are self-delusional about their abilities, some are true maestros.

Unchecked expression of my thoughts would QUICKLY lead to my getting banned. It has happened to others here who spoke what was on their minds.

Often the truth is interpreted as "trolling" by lesser minds and petty martinets.

 

[Sparrow]

They're only photographs, and not really important in the grand scheme of things.

Sorry can’t agree, photography has been at the heart of communication for the last 70 years, it is clearly important.

 

[M. Valdemar]

What IS the grand scheme of things?

Answer that first and then I'll tell you what's important or not.

 

[foto_fool]

Often the truth is interpreted as "trolling" by lesser minds and petty martinets.

Depends on who's doing the truth telling, how they express themselves, whether one man's truth is truth for all, and whether the regime in power can tolerate that truth. Plenty of places in this world where speaking the "truth" will get you a bullet in the head.

...photography has been at the heart of communication for the last 70 years, it is clearly important.

Stewart - there's a crucial difference between my photographs and photography .

- John

 

[raid]

i wouldn't take such an attack personally. his frustration was clearly directed at the gallery commenting culture at large, which is saturated with vapid, tranquilizing praise. rude attacks like that are the other side of the same coin. my guess is that if he saw a photo he liked, he wouldn't be able to say anything intelligent about it either.

i agree with the idea that we should be able to indicate what kind of photographer we are and what kind of comments we'd like on a certain photo. it's not just a matter of skill level, but also ambition.

I am willing to accept negative criticism when I post images to be critiqued. On the other hand, I view the RFF Gallery a place to load up some of my images. Period.

 

[Sparrow]

The quote “publish and be dammed” springs to mind, if you are an artist should you not have the confidence to present your work and accept the consequence?

 

[ruben]

IN DEFENSE OF NED (NB23)

Some things Ned has said are not along my best understanding. Nevertheless there is a point where I find that although he didn't said it, he implayed it, and seems to me to be right.

There is a kind of myth running among us that a non-pro like most of us enjoy the biggest freedom of creativity, while a pro selling his work is a kind of mercenary or slave of his master voice.

From the factual point of view this is as wrong as from the analitical one. Magazines and other bodies employing artists pay for their art. Art, as seem by them, is worth of money paying. In the long run you cannot create art under commisioning or by assignment.

But your art may be the one a Vogue or National Geographic is looking for and here the meeting point.

In other orders of life, your art may be the one the public is looking for in a kind of uncouncious state of mind, and when given the opportunity you become a great or small success.

Ned seems to be a young man with a whole life ahead. He is defending his prospective position in the food chain. Just that.

In between I would like to say that although I never had the opportunity of personally acquinting myself with them, there seems to be another cathegory of artists, whose art is built in from birth and after being acknowledged they don't need to effort themselves anymore. The ones in this group skilled with a commercial sense, are to me the most repelent beings. The magazine pays for their name, more than for their work.

In contrast to Ned many of us are middle aged or beyond. Some of us are retired, some of us still have to fill a job to substain our families and ourselves. We are in a different position at the artistic food chain. Our advantage over Ned is in our life experience, and the blows we have got along the way. Yassir Arafat said once, "each blow that doesn't kill me - makes me stronger".

What Ned cannot know even if he tryies to, is the tremendous value for us of being able to create something pleasing ourselves. We are not running for Presidency anymore. We look around our non-creative acquintances and we feel extremely lucky.

Therefore we should take Ned's words in their relative weight, and this includes the possibility he may find his way to Magnum or elsewhere, and instead of getting offended perhaps we can help him by the same way we help ourselves - enhancing and strengthening RFF.

Cheers,
Ruben