Self Censorship: Our Worst Enemy

M. Valdemar said:
..............

PS: I'm aware of MANY people who have been banned for expressing heresy on RFF, which to my mind was not trolling. One is a nutjob who set up a website to talk about other RFF members. I think he's insane, but should he have been banned? His posts were entertaining.

Very few people have been banned from RFF, that's correct. But have they been banned for "expressing heressy" ???. Here you have to inform me better.

Unfortunately, and in my most honest way, I don't know the case of nutjob at all, whom you regard as "insane", but entertaining.

Can I conclude that according to you insane folks should be within RFF provided they are entertaining ?

Cheers,
Ruben
 
The insane are in the majority everywhere else, why not on RFF?

ruben said:
Very few people have been banned from RFF, that's correct. But have they been banned for "expressing heressy" ???. Here you have to inform me better.

Unfortunately, and in my most honest way, I don't know the case of nutjob at all, whom you regard as "insane", but entertaining.

Can I conclude that according to you insane folks should be within RFF provided they are entertaining ?

Cheers,
Ruben
 
raid said:
"Your image has a feeling of depression attached to it. I cannot feel happy by looking at the image. Maybe this is the message. It is a fine image."



Is this an acceptable critique? Is it kosher to express one's feelings when inspecting someone else's image? Was I wrong in stating what I did [above]?
I am still not sure why I was not allowed to sense "depression" while the photographer may have sensed "beauty". Why can't we both have our own feelings?


Hi Raid
This critique is not only acceptable to me, but one of high quality keeping full respect towards the photographer.

I am not clear regarding if you actually posted it or not, but you are here being of great help to the photog in case. You have been both deeply sincere and crowned it with full respect.

Cheers,
Ruben
 
ruben said:
Hi Raid
This critique is not only acceptable to me, but one of high quality keeping full respect towards the photographer.

I am not clear regarding if you actually posted it or not, but you are here being of great help to the photog in case. You have been both deeply sincere and crowned it with full respect.

Cheers,
Ruben


Ruben,

I quoted verbatim by copying from the critique session at RFF.

Cheers,

Raid
 
This is what I wrote in response to a similar post in another forum, Ruben:

The art of the Critique

Most of you have no doubt noticed the section under each piece of artwork in your individual galleries that is set aside for people to post comments. No doubt most of the comments you have received are things like: "Gee, this is good!" or "Very nice work!" and so on. These are comments, not critiques. While these are nice to look at and make you feel all warm and fuzzy, when it comes to helping you develop your technique and helping you to grow as a photographer, they are almost worthless. What is worse, the general effect of most of them can be to encourage complacency. There is a difference between a comment and a critique. Critiques are far more valuable. I'd trade all of my comments for one good critique.

A comment is a general statement of approval or disapproval. "Gee this is so good it makes me want to have your baby! You are a photography God!" is a comment (a somewhat disturbing comment, but a comment nevertheless). It does not mention what the person found admirable about the photo. Similarly, "This sucks. In a perfect society, real photographers would gather together in order to beat you to death." is a comment. It does not say what in particular the viewer found objectionable. Comments leave the artist wondering why the photo is good or bad and, most importantly, they don't pinpoint areas where he needs to develop his or her level of skill. I'd like to stress this, because this last is the most important aspect of a critique. If you don't find something that needs improvement, point it out, and suggest a way to improve it, you have left a worthless comment, not a valuable critique.

Now compare the comment to a critique: "I like the general effect, and, in particular, I like the detail in the foliage. However, I noticed that the bright red of the lady's fingernails draws the eye strongly, and distracts the viewer's attention from her face, which I feel should be the focal point of the composition. It seems to me to be a little overexposed, by maybe one f-stop. When photographing a model against a black background, you need to meter on her skin or use a gray card. A meter assumes that all scenes are supposed to be 18% gray and it looks at the whole scene and gives you a reading that will give you the "correct" exposure to achieve this. With this much black, the reading will be incorrect. However, most Caucasian skin is pretty close to 18% gray and if you approach the model so that her skin fills the viewfinder, you will get a good meter reading. If your model is Black, you can meter on a gray card in similar lighting. The white border is not really working either and I think it makes the photo look flat. This has potential, but isn't quite there and I'd reshoot it." A critique requires a little analysis, and it points out a photo's problem areas. This gives the artist an idea of what areas of composition he or she needs to concentrate on and aids him or her enormously in developing artistic and technical skills.

Now every artist has (or should have) a different style (and maybe a whole different interpretation of art), and so the photographer being critiqued may not agree with you. Nevertheless, the critique is still valuable - even if our hypothetical photographer rejects your opinion utterly - because it allows him or her to see how others perceive the artwork in question. If people are missing the point, the photographer can work on a way to emphasize it a bit more in the next shoot.

All this said, the purpose of a critique is to encourage the development of an artist's skill, not to rip his or her work to shreds. You start with a compliment and point out just a few problem areas, even if you think the work is a disaster and riddled with them. If you mention too much that is wrong, the general effect will be to discourage the artist from creating more work instead of to encourage him or her to create better work. This is what is meant by constructive criticism. If you are not very good about compliments (or can't find anything to compliment), then at the very least start off with something like "No offense, but..." so the artist will know that he or she is not being attacked.

ALL photographers who are at all serious, and who are worthy of being called photographers, will sincerely appreciate critiques. It is worth the effort to supply one and you will often find the favor returned if you go to the trouble. What is more, analysis of other's efforts will be of benefit to you in analyzing your own work.
 
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ruben said:
Hi Raid
This critique is not only acceptable to me, but one of high quality keeping full respect towards the photographer.

I am not clear regarding if you actually posted it or not, but you are here being of great help to the photog in case. You have been both deeply sincere and crowned it with full respect.

Cheers,
Ruben


Of course the photog could ignore it, but ceirtainly in this case it would be higly unpropper by him to answer "get a life". :)

As a matter of fact long ago my wife made me a similar verbal commentary, with much less tact and respect, after I made a portrait of one of her friends. It took me many years to realize it, but she was right.

During the years in between, her reaction had a place in my mind, and despite my strong protest at the moment, it had a positive effect on me. I started to question myself why what I see white she sees black, and finnaly I got the answer. Of course it is very personal and I keep my right not to detail.

Cheers,
Ruben
 
I do not think there are universal standards, why should there be we are all individuals and each has an opinion

Just because there are no universal standards doesn't mean every opinion has equal merit. At worst, that's simply laughable. The best you can say about it is that it's the misapplied notion that, in a democracy, everyone is somehow 'equal,' but it's an idea that has no merit whatsoever when applied to art, or its attempt.
 
ruben said:
Of course the photog could ignore it, but ceirtainly in this case it would be higly unpropper by him to answer "get a life". :)


Cheers,
Ruben

I guess, you could be right here. :D
I changed it to :"thank you"
 
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I used to be a magazine editor. Many years ago.

I was daily faced with the job of rejecting the work of many photographers and writers.

There are COUNTLESS HORDES of people with absolutely no talent who believe themselves to be highly gifted.

On the other hand, I often recognized and nurtured talent when I saw it, even from complete beginners and unknowns.

I published the work of one cartoonist who had been rejected by everyone else and was about to give up. I alone felt he was good.

A couple of years ago he won the MacArthur Fellowship (the genius grant), and is one of the most recognized artists in his field today.

I don't see much of those I rejected. The capacity for self-delusion is enormous in human beings.

If you like photography for pleasure or for making family records, etc, fine. If you like keeping a diary, fine. But not everyone is Samuel Pepys or Ilse Bing., even though they fervently believe it.
 
It is nice to know that among us there are magazine editors. Professionals can do a lot of good here by sharing with us their work experiences. I have to admit that I do not know anything about Samuel Pepys or Ilse Bing., so maybe that's why I take photos of my family.


I am glad that I just make family records.
 
Again, I was not speaking about any one person or singling anyone out.

Just a perception.

And actually, the people who post at all are making a contribution. Looks at the THOUSANDS of people who are online here but never make a post.

How many post? 1% or 3% of the people who read RFF? Can't be much more.

The people who post are doing a good job of entertaining the lurkers and those who are afraid to put a sentence together,
 
raid said:
It is nice to know that among us there are magazine editors. Professionals can do a lot of good here by sharing with us their work experiences. I have to admit that I do not know anything about Samuel Pepys or Ilse Bing., so maybe that's why I take photos of my family.


I am glad that I just make family records.

Ahh!! but I saw your photographs you took on your trip to Turkey! Very good! and don,t feel too bad, I haven't heard of Samuel Pepys nor Ilse Bing either but I plan to google their names later.
 
M. Valdemar said:
I used to be a magazine editor. Many years ago.......

............If you like photography for pleasure or for making family records, etc, fine. If you like keeping a diary, fine. But not everyone is Samuel Pepys or Ilse Bing., even though they fervently believe it.

I have not the slightest idea who Samuel Pepys or Ilse Bing are, or were. But I know I am not HCB, nor even half Beniliam. So?

I know I want to create, since a creative life is the best and most beautifull life I can realistically have.

I know that my past photographic history has made me highly sensitive to enjoy many different types of art, and different types of art serve as a source of inspiration for my photography.

I know that a year from now I will be making better photographs than today, provided I put effort, concentration, open mind, couriosity, and other spices.

I know many things, beyond photography, that you Valdemar have not the slightest idea about. And for that matter perhaps both Pepys and Ilse are or were in your shoes.

So? Can you kindly explain me what are you talking about ?

I started a thread aimed at improving RFF via improving ourselves. RFF is not a refugee camp of uncapable people, but the most hot and alive photography website in the world. Just read this whole thread from the begining and you will get a feeling of who and what we are.

In case you have any contribution to make, or critique as Fallisphoto explained the real meaning of the word, I am all ears.

Cheers,
Ruben
 
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Well, it wouldn't hurt to know who they are:

Ilse Bing
2006050453fotofrancesa_20060504_o.jpg


Samuel Pepys
0679642218.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg


Also, please don't personalize my remarks. I wasn't talking about you or anyone here in particular. I have no doubt you know about a wide range of subjects. Why are you offended?
 
Hi Fallis,

What a nice piece have you brought !

Kindly excuss me for not noticing it earlier, and just now here it is 04:39 AM.
Ceirtainly your piece deserves my fullest attention, first thing in the morning.

Just include in your attention we all are a very variyed crowd, including different aspirations, backgrounds, interests, personal wishes and approaches. This is both our Aquilles point and our strength.

Cheers,
Ruben
 
Sparrow said:
Then, John, you are an artist?

Stewart - no. I'm Ruben's example of a middle-aged guy having some fun doing something creative outside of my profession, hoping to capture images of interest to my descendents, doing my best to improve my very modest abilities, and praying I can do well enough to avoid having my funding for this hobby cut off by my significant other. I was engaging in a bit of self-deprecation.

FallisPhoto - thanks for the thorough illustration of what constitutes constructive criticism. Too bad we don't see much of that kind of careful and thoughtful analysis.

kevin m said:
Just because there are no universal standards doesn't mean every opinion has equal merit.

Kevin - excellent point, to which I wholeheartedly agree.

In an earlier life I was a certified welder in Texas. One of the guys I worked with - a skilled craftsman - had a colorful pat comeback when someone offered unsolicited criticism: "I'm f***ing this cat, I'll kiss it if I want to."

- John
 
PS: I find it hard to believe that anyone who attended English-speaking school classes has never heard of Samuel Pepys.

OK, Ilse Bing might be a somewhat esoteric reference to those not well versed in 20th Century photographers.

But Samuel Pepys? That's an interesting bit of information. I'm 53 years old. I didn't think many my age didn't instantly understand the reference.

I think it's time for me to shut up and go back to semi-lurk mode.
 
Valdemar - take heart. Some of us have read Pepys. But Ilse Bing was new to me - thanks for the heads-up (makes up for your "majority is insane" comment before, where you had me thinking you might be FrankG :D).

- John
 
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