zauhar
Veteran
Godfrey, I don't think the feeling is "anti-education" so much as "anti-college". Schools today have less interest in developing thoughtful, creative, cultured graduates, more interest in collecting tuition and satisfying the needs of industry.
That last one is a tall order, since the f-cking idiots in "industry" don't know enough to know what they need.
I teach college, and honestly do my best for my students. But when I think back to the excellent education I received as an undergraduate, and the relative pittance I paid for it, I feel bad for the young people today who start their lives in a deep hole (or their parents, who need to liquidate their life savings and even worse their photo gear!)
Randy
Eric T
Well-known
Sell gear. Both of my daughters are now in college. I would not hesitate to sell gear if I needed tuition money. I am determined to see that my daughters graduate from college debt free. Fortunately, my income can handle the college expenses.
My parents paid for my education. My wife and I are paying for my kids education. I expect my daughters to pay for the education of any future grand children I may have.
Gear usually depreciates. Smart investing in stocks should do much better than gear.
My parents paid for my education. My wife and I are paying for my kids education. I expect my daughters to pay for the education of any future grand children I may have.
Gear usually depreciates. Smart investing in stocks should do much better than gear.
ramosa
B&W
First, sell gear (except for the few necessities).
Second, sell stocks.
Second, sell stocks.
jordanstarr
J.R.Starr
....Given your list, you could probably afford to limit yourself to one 35mm and one medium format system.
That said, I'm 29 and had to pay for my education myself with student loans. Not the funnest route, but it made me take my education and everything after that a little more seriously and not take it for granted. There's merit in understanding the worth of a dollar. I have a decent job that I likely wouldn't have without my education, so I'm thankful for it.
That being said, I always have to question the merits of post-secondary education in particular circumstances. I have 3 other siblings who had to do the same as me and pay for their own education and one works at a coffee shop, the other as a cashier at a grocery store and one is unemployed. The three of them share 3 degrees and 2 diplomas, yet they have no job in their field. Something to think about and this is Canada, where university is "only" about $5,000 a year.
That said, I'm 29 and had to pay for my education myself with student loans. Not the funnest route, but it made me take my education and everything after that a little more seriously and not take it for granted. There's merit in understanding the worth of a dollar. I have a decent job that I likely wouldn't have without my education, so I'm thankful for it.
That being said, I always have to question the merits of post-secondary education in particular circumstances. I have 3 other siblings who had to do the same as me and pay for their own education and one works at a coffee shop, the other as a cashier at a grocery store and one is unemployed. The three of them share 3 degrees and 2 diplomas, yet they have no job in their field. Something to think about and this is Canada, where university is "only" about $5,000 a year.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
You're right about the value of an education in making one a better person. The problem is that, at least in the USA, education has gotten so expensive that most students go into debt to the tune of tens of thousands of dollars, some well over $100,000. When they get out, they're unlikely to get jobs paying even a minimal living wage in most parts of the country unless their families are well-connected (wealthy). Where I live, most college grads end up working at Starbucks or Walmart, if they can get a job at all.
It would be great if everyone could be highly educated without worrying about vocational training. I have a masters degree, and I am constantly learning, even though I am no longer a student. I own more than 2000 books, can speak three languages, and I always have 3-4 books in progress. I am not an anti-intellectual, but realistically, education is just too costly for what you get from it in a time when most students will graduate with incredible debt and no decent career prospects.
You would be shocked if I told you how much I owe in student loans, and I will almost certainly never pay them off. I make so little that I barely keep food on the table for myself and my son. I'm not alone; many people I know with university degrees are even worse off. I, at least, do have an income.
Frontman
Well-known
If your son wants to study philosophy, poly-sci, or literature (like I did), save your money. I find my expensive education is of little use in the real world, and almost completely irrelevant to my current profession. Working on the docks pays better than most writing positions, and requires no education.
If your son is going to study something, encourage him to find something useful. I'm amazed at how many useless programs are now offered in universities nowadays. Gee, I wonder what kind of job I can get after four years of studying "gender equality in developing nations"? Learning to drive a big truck would cost less, and provide a better-paying job. The world is full of educated idiots with degrees in "hospitality", or "gender studies" who are carrying a ton of student loan debt, while scraping out a living in the service industries. And this is happening when America is crying out for engineers, doctors, and others with "useful" skills.
My parents didn't help me to pay for my education, which is just as well. I'm sure they had their doubts about my future as a philosophical political novelist, and of course, their doubts were proven correct. But the choice, the cost, and the consequences were all mine to bear. Fortunately, four years in the Army paid off my student loans, and added a little much-needed common sense to my education.
Good luck to you and your son. Make sure to include a healthy dose of reality when making your educational plans. If you are going to sacrifice for him, hopefully he will reciprocate, and do the same for you.
If your son is going to study something, encourage him to find something useful. I'm amazed at how many useless programs are now offered in universities nowadays. Gee, I wonder what kind of job I can get after four years of studying "gender equality in developing nations"? Learning to drive a big truck would cost less, and provide a better-paying job. The world is full of educated idiots with degrees in "hospitality", or "gender studies" who are carrying a ton of student loan debt, while scraping out a living in the service industries. And this is happening when America is crying out for engineers, doctors, and others with "useful" skills.
My parents didn't help me to pay for my education, which is just as well. I'm sure they had their doubts about my future as a philosophical political novelist, and of course, their doubts were proven correct. But the choice, the cost, and the consequences were all mine to bear. Fortunately, four years in the Army paid off my student loans, and added a little much-needed common sense to my education.
Good luck to you and your son. Make sure to include a healthy dose of reality when making your educational plans. If you are going to sacrifice for him, hopefully he will reciprocate, and do the same for you.
DominikDUK
Well-known
Sell your gear and start using a praktica. I partially agree with frontman but only partially. Your son should major in something he can make money with and minor in something that helps develop his mind like philosophy. An acquaintance of mine who is director of research for a large very innovative company only employs people with both a scientific/technical background and a background in the humanities. He says scientist/technician are sometimes to narrow minded and can't solve certain problems due to their lack of phantasy and or lack of knowledge outside their scientific realm.
Dominik
Dominik
Addy101
Well-known
Sell stock, it is useless as it doesn't give any fun or satisfaction. Stocks give money in the long run, but if you never cash it, what is the use???
However, seeing your equipment list, you could trim your collection. Only keep an M-camera, dump the LTM. Sell the Leica R (or Nikon F) as one SLR system is enough. And keep one MF system. Any money you still need then, get it out of your stocks.
And let your son chip in, assuming he has an age to do so. It will be a worthwhile life-lesson
However, seeing your equipment list, you could trim your collection. Only keep an M-camera, dump the LTM. Sell the Leica R (or Nikon F) as one SLR system is enough. And keep one MF system. Any money you still need then, get it out of your stocks.
And let your son chip in, assuming he has an age to do so. It will be a worthwhile life-lesson
jarski
Veteran
sell what sells well these days 
not one or another only.
and as others commented, let your son do his part as well.
not one or another only.and as others commented, let your son do his part as well.
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
Sell whichever one or mix you are comfortable selling. Some good points have been made that I think should also taken into consideration. A post secondary education has lost a lot of it's value as a means to a very good job simply because there are so many people out there with one. The route to a post secondary education should not be a free ride, the student should have a vested interest in it by supplying part of the funding themselves. It is not a rosy picture here in Canada even with a post secondary education. Good luck to you.
Bob
Bob
Godfrey
somewhat colored
I guess I started out going to college with different assumptions from many, judging by the responses in this thread. I never thought college would "pay off" at all, monetarily. When my mum couldn't afford to help pay for it, I put myself though college because I wanted an education beyond making a living.
I won't write a biography here, but before I left high school I learned how to make photographs and work as a photographer's assistant on wedding gigs. I learned how to write and sell articles to magazines and newspapers. When I started college, I learned how to sell camera gear in a department store and then work as a receptionist and administrative assistant at a yacht club. Then I learned how to fix cars and motorcycles, rebuild engines, transmissions, and brakes; build racing engines. I learned how to coordinate and manage the pit for multi rider racing teams at endurance races.
I went to four colleges. I started studying at my first loves, which were creative writing, art and theology. They came to me too easily, I got bored. I switched to philosophy and language. Not precise enough. I switched again to mathematics. That was tough, that was hard, and I loved it. I studied music on the side, and took student loans to finish so I wouldn't be distracted. I was an undergrad for 13 years, and graduated with a BA in Theoretical Math.
I went to work at a photo finishing lab. I did art photography on the side as well as took jobs shooting other artists' work for their portfolios. After three years of that and living on a subsistence income, I was tired and frustrated. I left town to seek something else.
I was on the road for half a year. During that time, I took jobs as a short order cook, as a construction helper, as a mechanic, and as a ditch digger. I ended up quite penniless at a friend's place in SoCal. He'd gone back to school and was doing a part time job at the Jet Propulsion Lab. He introduced me to his boss one day. I was working at Burger King. Two months later, his boss gave me a job at the Lab. I was making 16000/yr then and felt rich. I stayed there four years, doubled my salary, taught myself computer science, and left for private industry.
That was twenty five years ago. A lot of water under the bridge since. I work for Apple now as a technical writer. It's hard work, as hard or harder than studying math was thirty years ago. I love it. I've never had a job in mathematics, but I still love mathematics. I paid off the $50,000 i borrowed in student loans by 1993. I value my education far more than any dollars I've garnered from it, and any money I paid for it. I'd sell every scrap of photo gear I own now to pay for it again if I needed to. The experience of earning that degree taught me more than any certificate could stand for.
It was not easy. It was tough as hell, and I spent years having to decide between ramen noodles again or paying the rent. I always paid the rent. And I always found some way, no matter how poor I was, to take some camera—any camera!—and create photographs that made me smile. Because doing that is what my education taught me was worth the pain, worth the hard work, worth the damn ramen noodles for dinner again.
Where I work now, what I do for a living, how much I make, and all that, is transitory. It could change in an instant. I could lose everything tomorrow and never feel a dime poorer, because NO ONE can ever take my education from my. My ability to think, to see, to learn, to work at my art... is mine and mine alone, worth more than any mountain of camera gear or gold. The only thing worth more is Time itself.
G
"The only things worth having can only be given away. They cannot be neither bought nor sold, nor held with a grasping heart. Only given away. And in that giving away lies the riches of all Time."
I won't write a biography here, but before I left high school I learned how to make photographs and work as a photographer's assistant on wedding gigs. I learned how to write and sell articles to magazines and newspapers. When I started college, I learned how to sell camera gear in a department store and then work as a receptionist and administrative assistant at a yacht club. Then I learned how to fix cars and motorcycles, rebuild engines, transmissions, and brakes; build racing engines. I learned how to coordinate and manage the pit for multi rider racing teams at endurance races.
I went to four colleges. I started studying at my first loves, which were creative writing, art and theology. They came to me too easily, I got bored. I switched to philosophy and language. Not precise enough. I switched again to mathematics. That was tough, that was hard, and I loved it. I studied music on the side, and took student loans to finish so I wouldn't be distracted. I was an undergrad for 13 years, and graduated with a BA in Theoretical Math.
I went to work at a photo finishing lab. I did art photography on the side as well as took jobs shooting other artists' work for their portfolios. After three years of that and living on a subsistence income, I was tired and frustrated. I left town to seek something else.
I was on the road for half a year. During that time, I took jobs as a short order cook, as a construction helper, as a mechanic, and as a ditch digger. I ended up quite penniless at a friend's place in SoCal. He'd gone back to school and was doing a part time job at the Jet Propulsion Lab. He introduced me to his boss one day. I was working at Burger King. Two months later, his boss gave me a job at the Lab. I was making 16000/yr then and felt rich. I stayed there four years, doubled my salary, taught myself computer science, and left for private industry.
That was twenty five years ago. A lot of water under the bridge since. I work for Apple now as a technical writer. It's hard work, as hard or harder than studying math was thirty years ago. I love it. I've never had a job in mathematics, but I still love mathematics. I paid off the $50,000 i borrowed in student loans by 1993. I value my education far more than any dollars I've garnered from it, and any money I paid for it. I'd sell every scrap of photo gear I own now to pay for it again if I needed to. The experience of earning that degree taught me more than any certificate could stand for.
It was not easy. It was tough as hell, and I spent years having to decide between ramen noodles again or paying the rent. I always paid the rent. And I always found some way, no matter how poor I was, to take some camera—any camera!—and create photographs that made me smile. Because doing that is what my education taught me was worth the pain, worth the hard work, worth the damn ramen noodles for dinner again.
Where I work now, what I do for a living, how much I make, and all that, is transitory. It could change in an instant. I could lose everything tomorrow and never feel a dime poorer, because NO ONE can ever take my education from my. My ability to think, to see, to learn, to work at my art... is mine and mine alone, worth more than any mountain of camera gear or gold. The only thing worth more is Time itself.
G
"The only things worth having can only be given away. They cannot be neither bought nor sold, nor held with a grasping heart. Only given away. And in that giving away lies the riches of all Time."
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Godfrey,
You can't BUY education, nor is it a gift. It is something that comes from a desire within. Distressingly few undergraduates (or graduates) have that desire.
A lot of what is sold as education is worthless. There are those who buy their passport to a middle-class job; those who go through university because it's what is expected of them, and they lack the wit or ambition to jump off the conveyor belt; those who use university as a means of postponing entry into the harsh realities of the the labour market; those who use it as empty snobbery; those who go to trade school and pretend it's part of an education (lawyers are especially bad at this -- I know, because I have an LL.B.)
Not for a moment am I anti-education. My education is one of the things I prize above all else. But how much of it came from university? Really, very little. Nor did I enjoy my time at university as much as I enjoyed my informal apprenticeship, a few years later, as a photographer. My wife, with two degrees in theatre, feels the same way: going straight into costume, with a burning desire to know more, would have been far better. And one of my oldest friends, a carpenter, again has pursued his own education. Do you know how the joints on galleys were made, to resist the shocks of ramming? He does. After studying the old texts, he worked out how to build those joints, and put theory into practice. It's an impressive bit of woodworking. Another old friend, a builder, left school at 15, after playing hookey for most of his final year. English Heritage and the like now call on him when they want something rebuilt using authentic historical techniques: mediaeval, Georgian, whatever.
Many of the most educated people I know did not go to university, but acquired their learning through reading, conversation, and, yes, apprenticeships. If you want an example of an extremely educated man who never went to university, read the works of Sir Terry Pratchett. If you want an example of a very well educated captain of industry who never went to university, look at Sir Kenneth Corfield. I could list at least half a dozen friends who are rather better educated, erudite and intelligent than the majority of graduates of even highly regarded universities.
Education as sold today is a vicious trap, to enslave not-very-bright kids with debt (and therefore make them more biddable) and to buy them an entry ticket to jobs that do not, for one nanosecond, require a university education. When I was at university, there were no tuition fees and students got grants to help them through. For my generation, who had it so easy, to pretend that university today is essential -- especially now that it is extended to vastly more people -- is a cruel, short-sighted, arrogant hoax.
Yes, we are entering a dark age. A dark age of pseudo-education; of debt slavery; of arrogance and stupidity on the part of the rich, and those who hold themselves in high esteem because of their trivial degrees.
Cheers,
R.
mfogiel
Veteran
You should probably do the following:
1- verify if your son is not eligible for a scholarship, and if he can work part time to pay for the tuition
2- sell some gear, but keep Leica lenses - these still tend to appreciate
3- sell some stocks - select these that pay the smallest dividends and are in the most volatile sectors ( technology, ufology, etc)
I have paid full tuition fees for my daughter's education, and I think this has been in part a non educative experience for her. When things come too easy, they do not learn enough from the experience.
1- verify if your son is not eligible for a scholarship, and if he can work part time to pay for the tuition
2- sell some gear, but keep Leica lenses - these still tend to appreciate
3- sell some stocks - select these that pay the smallest dividends and are in the most volatile sectors ( technology, ufology, etc)
I have paid full tuition fees for my daughter's education, and I think this has been in part a non educative experience for her. When things come too easy, they do not learn enough from the experience.
sailor
Well-known
I see you are in Canada. There was a programme on UK television recently called Superscrimpers which offered tips about how to save money in various areas. Their tip for education was to go to Canada where you'll get an excellent education at a fraction of the cost in the UK.
I was of a generation where education grants were freely available to students whose parents were not well off. When I gave up my quantity surveying apprenticeship to go to teacher training college my grant was actually more than my apprentice's (admittedly tiny) wage. Changed days!
I was of a generation where education grants were freely available to students whose parents were not well off. When I gave up my quantity surveying apprenticeship to go to teacher training college my grant was actually more than my apprentice's (admittedly tiny) wage. Changed days!
Sparrow
Veteran
Sending ones children off to Uni at eighteen isn't simply about what they learn on the course it's also learning how to socialise and live independently. Personally I'd sell both if I needed to.
However I agree with Roger's thoughts on an educational dark age and the slavery of the student loan system, here in the UK anyway
However I agree with Roger's thoughts on an educational dark age and the slavery of the student loan system, here in the UK anyway
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Stewart,
"...it's also learning how to socialise and live independently" -- which you can learn equally well living in a shared flat as (for example) a photographer's assistant, articled clerk, etc., as in a shared flat with other students. The work-place is arguably a much better place to learn to socialize than the hot-house society of often spoiled kids, all of the same age, at university.
"Personally I'd sell both if I needed to." What, both kids? Isn't that a bit hard-hearted? (Sorry: couldn't resist deliberately mis-reading.)
"...here in the UK anyway." From all I hear and read, it's worse in the United States (don't know about Canada).
Cheers,
R.
Godfrey
somewhat colored
While i agree with that, its incomplete. You buy the credential ... The education it represents comes from within. People who assume that the credential IS the education are the ones who are mistaken, who don't know what they're buying.
It's up to the buyer to know what it is they are buying, what its value is, and pay for it with forethought and wisdom. Shysters and crooks have always existed, in all spheres of human endeavor: education is no different. No ones ever going to stop that either ... It's up to each individual to find their way through it.
Two people going to the same college, taking the same courses, getting the same marks, and receiving the same degree — no matter what college, no matter what degree — can finish with two entirely different things. One student can leave with an education, the other a piece of paper. Neither their loving parents who gave them the gift of funding for experience, nor the crooked or honest shenanigans of the institution, are to blame for that. It's up to the students themselves to make the reality of their education, and no one else.
It's a great gift to give your child or some other person that opportunity by giving them the money to pursue an education. If you do it, you should neither expect nor deserve anything in return. It's one of the only things worth having.
G
Sparrow
Veteran
It would have been/would be much cheaper had I thought of that.
However I think all those deadlines along the way, and the prospect of that goal is generally a good thing, it's working for my kids anyway, one more than the other I admit ... I realise it isn't for everyone
Uni is more costly here now I understand, we don't have the US habit of endowment and philanthropy.
N
Nikon Bob
Guest
