sensor resolution vs optic resolving power, the D800 case

[sanmich]

First, I would like to say that I'm impressed with the D800 specs, and I know at least one good friend that likes to make large panoramas from digital images, and the D800 will be great for him. So I'm really not trying to bash the product.

Now, to make the question short:
Are the best lenses available for Nikon full frame good enough to allow the 36MP sensor to deliver more details in the final image?
Another related question: assuming there is some benefit from the 36 MP over what is available today: if, at 36MP, the sensor stops to be the quality limitator, what's the point of the D800E?

I think we could compare the lens resolving power in lpm to the sensor pitch/pixel size, but as I understand nothing to the technology, I will humbly declare myself unable to make any valid analysis here...

 

[gavinlg]

The good modern nikon primes and G zooms are fine for 36mp.

I wouldn't worry about it too much, I think this concern is definitely the result of pixel peepers overanalyzing things from their computer chair...

 

[sanmich]

pixel peepers overanalyzing things from their computer chair...

Gavin, I shoot tri-X in 35mm. So I'm not overly concerned.
But you are basically insulting generations of people using Medium format and large format, among other things, to get details.

There is a new technology out there, with something that could be a real step forward. I am just asking if this is an actual progress, and the fact that this progress is not interesting for you (and for me, BTW) seems irrelevant to me.

 

[gavinlg]

Gavin, I shoot tri-X in 35mm. So I'm not overly concerned.
But you are basically insulting generations of people using Medium format and large format, among other things, to get details.

There is a new technology out there, with something that could be a real step forward. I am just asking if this is an actual progress, and the fact that this progress is not interesting for you (and for me, BTW) seems irrelevant to me.

Michael, I wasn't referring to you specifically - just that I think the whole thing about lenses being out resolved by sensors is a farce. People had the same concerns about cameras like the 5d II with 21mp, and I have found the 5dII to be no more special than the original 12mp 5d was with cheap lenses. I didn't find it to 'push' the limits of the lenses any more than the 5d does.

Just my opinion, but remember drum scans of 35mm negatives come in at something like 40-60mp, and even old manual focal primes are generally fine for this type of output.

edit: you can also check out the samples on the nikon website at 100% - they look plennnnty sharp to me, albeit taken with nikons best glass.

 

[NLewis]

That question is easy to answer:

A Nikon DX-sensor camera with 15mp has the same pixel pitch as 36mp on full frame. Just put a lens on a DX camera and pixel-peep your heart out. The difference with FX is that you see the whole image circle.

In practice, Nikon's cheapest lenses, like the $125 18-55 DX, resolve more than the sensor, at least if you stop it down one stop. The $125 50/1.8 will resolve more than the sensor at f/1.8.

Even if the sensor did have more resolving ability than the lens, that is not necessarily a bad thing. You still get a little advantage from over-sampling. We still scan 35mm Tri-X at 15mp, even though there is perhaps 5mp of real resolution there.

 

[sevo]

Does it really matter? In practice, far more photographers will be hit by old bad 35mm SLR habits, like shooting hand-held, with fully open or with fully stopped down lenses, or assuming a CoC for their DOF calculations that might once have been appropriate for sixties vintage Tri-X.

 

[Spanik]

far more photographers will be hit by old bad 35mm SLR habits, like shooting hand-held, with fully open or with fully stopped down lenses

What's bad about that? Is it better to use them like new DSLR user, at arms length?

 

[ferider]

It's 200 pixel per mm, Michael, so the lens needs to resolve 100 lp/mm.

Plenty of modern lenses can do that, stopped down at least, for example the Zeiss lenses.

"Record lenses" (like the ZM 25/2.8) resolve over 400 lp/mm.

Now, to get there, you need a heavy tripod, high shutter speed, etc. You also need perfect alignment of mirror and film/sensor plane - which nobody ever talks about here, but which is just as sensitive as RF alignment in, say, M8 or M9, in particular for wide angles.

Roland.

 

[mdarnton]

I like what I read on the Fred Miranda forum this morning: for each upgrade there's a group of people who say lenses have met their limits now, but it doesn't seem to really happen. The poster who said that also said that previous testing was limited to the materials available, but that the actual resolving power of good lenses is well in advance of that, still. In view of what keeps happening, that seems reasonable.

My 12Mp D300 was the point at which I decided that digital quality was good enough for me to buy an expensive digital system camera. Now I'm wondering if the D800e will be the point at which I say I won't ever need anything better. . .

 

[sevo]

It's 200 pixel per mm, Michael, so the lens needs to resolve 100 lp/mm.

Or rather, anything above 100lp/mm would be entirely wasted. Whether a lens resolving 100lp/mm is visibly superior on a 200px/mm sensor to one resolving 70lp/mm will depend on far more things than spatial resolution...

 

[sevo]

What's bad about that? Is it better to use them like new DSLR user, at arms length?

Well, by specs, it is closer to a digital medium format camera - and if you want to exploit that for its resolution advantage, you'll soon end up doing everything at f/11 on a tripod.

 

[sanmich]

The good news are that everybody seem to admit that there may be an increase in image details compared to current models.

The better news are I can keep shooting my 35mm cameras with the knowledge and peace of mind that for additional details there is absolutely no point in shooting MF hand held (who does that anyway? 🙄)

 

[punkromance]

Bear in mind that while it is a whole lotta pixels, pretty much all the current crop cameras need lenses with a higher resolving power due to the pixel pitch.