functus
Failed Poet
I fit in category number 2.
I could possibly have earned more money doing photography. But it would have meant engaging in photography as an industry rather than as a passion -- endless team photographs, formulaic brochure shots, etc. I am neither good enough nor devoted enough to be a photojournalist or art photographer. Instead, I get to work at a relatively lucrative job (don't tell my ex-wife) during the day which gives me the resources to only take photographs of things I want to take photographs of.
So -- no regrets.
I could possibly have earned more money doing photography. But it would have meant engaging in photography as an industry rather than as a passion -- endless team photographs, formulaic brochure shots, etc. I am neither good enough nor devoted enough to be a photojournalist or art photographer. Instead, I get to work at a relatively lucrative job (don't tell my ex-wife) during the day which gives me the resources to only take photographs of things I want to take photographs of.
So -- no regrets.
Ade-oh
Well-known
Roger, out of interest do you feel that you have actually earned your living (since the age of 31) from doing photography or from writing about photography? Both are equally honourable but - I would suggest - are different careers.
barnwulf
Well-known
1. A long time ago I earned my living from photography. I did OK but I could have made more in some other field but I didn't care. For several of the last 10 years I made some income from doing landscape photography and selling my work in a gallery, but it was not enough to live on. I loved doing photo work and still do.
2. I have known some people that made a fair amount of money in photography but I just wasn't interested in doing what they had to do to make a substantial amount of money.
3. No I don't regret my decision about photography. I have enjoyed photography, made some money with it and have photographed most all of my adult life and I happy that I did what I did. I also worked as a motorcycle mechanic for a few years because I loved motorcycles certainly not because anyone can make much money doing it. Jim
2. I have known some people that made a fair amount of money in photography but I just wasn't interested in doing what they had to do to make a substantial amount of money.
3. No I don't regret my decision about photography. I have enjoyed photography, made some money with it and have photographed most all of my adult life and I happy that I did what I did. I also worked as a motorcycle mechanic for a few years because I loved motorcycles certainly not because anyone can make much money doing it. Jim
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
I've often thought about this, and I've come to the conclusion that they're not really separable. I couldn't earn money from writing about it without doing it -- and, of course, I have to illustrate books and magazine articles. That's why I phrased the original question as 'partly or wholly'. Some of the books I've written and illustrated are not about photography: Hidden Tibet, or Battlefields of the [American] Civil War, or The Airbrushing Book, or cook-books. The same goes for magazine articles (e.g. on travel by Land Rover) and I've also (comparatively rarely) done purely photographic jobs, i.e. pictures, no words. The latter are a lot more like hard work as far as I am concerned.
The replies so far suggest to me that most of those who earn their living partly or wholly from photography are not much motivated by money, though some may make a reasonable amount of it. As for what 'photography' is, in this context, it's hard to ignore Geoffrey Crawley. As he once said to he, "Can you imagine giving up photography? Because I can't." He was not a great photographer -- but if he wasn't, what was he? It takes a very long time to sum up all the things he did. I think he was even an expert witness in something to do with the Kennedy assassination, never mind the Cottingly Fairies.
Finally, a quote from George Bernard Shaw, speaking to Henry Ford: "Ah, well, there is the difference between us, Mr. Ford. You think only about art, and I think only about money."
Cheers,
R.
auldbob
Newbie
Like another member here, my main career was in law enforcement, and I do not for a moment believe that I could have made more money from photography, certainly not enough to pay a mortgage and raise two children. When I retired from law enforcement, photography was to have been my second career, but once again, expectations exceeded income.
However, it did open an unexpected door by making it possible to open a gallery which displayed the work of up and coming young photographers (and occasionally my own) and was in it's way more satisfying and exciting.
It also led to a wide circle of contacts within the photographic world, and when the gallery closed I found that I have been offered more work as a photographer than I can cope with, a situation that I find extremely satisfying.
I think that the journey to get here has probably been far more rewarding, both financially and artistically, than had I spent the whole time in photography alone.
However, it did open an unexpected door by making it possible to open a gallery which displayed the work of up and coming young photographers (and occasionally my own) and was in it's way more satisfying and exciting.
It also led to a wide circle of contacts within the photographic world, and when the gallery closed I found that I have been offered more work as a photographer than I can cope with, a situation that I find extremely satisfying.
I think that the journey to get here has probably been far more rewarding, both financially and artistically, than had I spent the whole time in photography alone.
rpilottx
Established
1. I paid my way through college workiing for the yearbook and student newspaper at Indiana University as a photographer. Then I spent a couple years as a news photographer on a paper in Ohio. I enjoyed it but it did not give me the satisfaction I was looking for.
2. Then, I became a pilot in the USMC followed by a career in federal law enforcement as a Customs pilot. Frankly, photography does not hold a candle to the chase and capture of drug smugglers or other "bad guys". And I earned a pretty good salary at it as well. I have a couple friends who freelance for National Geo and I think I made about the same as a pilot. Money was nice but my primary motivation was the excitement of the "chase". Not to hijack this thread but I read somewhere that 80% of those in law enforcement, search and rescue, aviation, and fire fighting type careers are first born sons (as I am). I wonder if there is a similiar study of those who go into photography or the arts?
3. Don't regret it as I carry a camera when I want. One of the things I did not like about news photography was some of the required photos (like the mayor signing some proclamation) but those are the bread and butter of small town newspapers. I have always enjoyed taking photos of subjects that interested me.
2. Then, I became a pilot in the USMC followed by a career in federal law enforcement as a Customs pilot. Frankly, photography does not hold a candle to the chase and capture of drug smugglers or other "bad guys". And I earned a pretty good salary at it as well. I have a couple friends who freelance for National Geo and I think I made about the same as a pilot. Money was nice but my primary motivation was the excitement of the "chase". Not to hijack this thread but I read somewhere that 80% of those in law enforcement, search and rescue, aviation, and fire fighting type careers are first born sons (as I am). I wonder if there is a similiar study of those who go into photography or the arts?
3. Don't regret it as I carry a camera when I want. One of the things I did not like about news photography was some of the required photos (like the mayor signing some proclamation) but those are the bread and butter of small town newspapers. I have always enjoyed taking photos of subjects that interested me.
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
A lot of coppers here! Again, that's not a job you go into for the money, really. And point fully taken about 'grip and grin' shots.
Edward Bulwer-Lytton said, Talent does what it can, Genius does what it must. I've never thought he got it quite right (or if he did, it's a somewhat generous definition of genius) but I've always felt that way about writing, and to a lesser extent about photography: if I'm going to do them anyway, I might as well make a living out of it. The phrase 'if I'm going to do them anyway' is central: I was never going to do accountancy for the fun of it. Nor did I feel any compulsion to do it. I can however see how (for example) police work could be compelling.
Auld Bob's point is important too. The ultimate counterfactual conditional is that we think we'd be the same person if we'd lived a different life.
Cheers,
R.
Edward Bulwer-Lytton said, Talent does what it can, Genius does what it must. I've never thought he got it quite right (or if he did, it's a somewhat generous definition of genius) but I've always felt that way about writing, and to a lesser extent about photography: if I'm going to do them anyway, I might as well make a living out of it. The phrase 'if I'm going to do them anyway' is central: I was never going to do accountancy for the fun of it. Nor did I feel any compulsion to do it. I can however see how (for example) police work could be compelling.
Auld Bob's point is important too. The ultimate counterfactual conditional is that we think we'd be the same person if we'd lived a different life.
Cheers,
R.
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Benjamin Marks
Veteran
I worked for a newspaper for about a year as a photographer and found that I liked photography much less when I was compelled to do it for a living. The stress of having to produce a working picture on a deadline took a lot of the pleasure out of the process. So when I decided to do something else, I experienced a very noticeable photographic sense of relief. I do feel that having experienced what I did inoculated me from the regret about which you are asking. I still love photography - I have since before I owned my first camera. When I take on "jobs" now, it is not for money, it is for pleasure. Further, in general I don't take money for photography now because I have enough to live on from my other pursuits and because I prefer the lower stress that comes from a bartered or non-commercial transaction.
Edit: I suppose one definition of luxury is being able to do that which you love without worrying about how you will eat.
Ben
Edit: I suppose one definition of luxury is being able to do that which you love without worrying about how you will eat.
Ben
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MC JC86
Negative Nancy.
Still (hopefully) pretty early on in my life. Attempting to earn a living in photography would have lead to starvation in fairly short order; don't have the eye, the patience, or the talent but I certainly admire those here that do.
I was heavily involved in the photo retail industry for a few years, but got in at the ground floor just as the roof was caving in; so that didn't work out either.
Working in EMS is a lot of fun, even an adrenaline rush at times, so I have no regrets. I've found that keeping photography as a passion the course of which is dictated only by my time and whims makes it far more fun (for me).
I was heavily involved in the photo retail industry for a few years, but got in at the ground floor just as the roof was caving in; so that didn't work out either.
Working in EMS is a lot of fun, even an adrenaline rush at times, so I have no regrets. I've found that keeping photography as a passion the course of which is dictated only by my time and whims makes it far more fun (for me).
haempe
Well-known
I got my 1989 photographers journeyman and worked since as a photographer and lab technician. For me, it was never a passion, always just a job.
Sometimes I hated it really. The way the photographer is viewed by society and the way that photographers see the society, or how photographers deal with each other, I was often contrary.
But a few years ago, after I gave up the drugs and become settled, I found that I need a hobby. And why learn something new when I am firm with analog photography already?
Now I have much joy with my new hobby, even less job satisfaction. I think I'm going to find something else to pay my bills, and I'd rather keep the joy of photography.
Regarding your questions:
I would never again want to become a professional photographer.
Sometimes I hated it really. The way the photographer is viewed by society and the way that photographers see the society, or how photographers deal with each other, I was often contrary.
But a few years ago, after I gave up the drugs and become settled, I found that I need a hobby. And why learn something new when I am firm with analog photography already?
Now I have much joy with my new hobby, even less job satisfaction. I think I'm going to find something else to pay my bills, and I'd rather keep the joy of photography.
Regarding your questions:
I would never again want to become a professional photographer.
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Paul Luscher
Well-known
No, not sorry I didn't try to make a living from photography.
Had to face up to the fact my talent level is such that I'd have a hard time trying to make it as a photog--way too many folks much better at it than me.
Thing is, photography is one of those glamor professions--like rock star--which everybody wants to do. And because so many really talented people want to do it, competition is brutal, and very few ever make it...just like all the really talented musicians who never make the big time.
As it is, my chosen profession allows me to live fairly comfortably, buy cameras, and noodle in photography to the best of my ability. Anyway....I got into photography by accident, more or less, after making my career choice, and going through the long and expensive training for it. That's my excuse....
Also, I have the discouraging example of a friend who is a pro photog. She and her significant other (who also makes his living in photography ) are having a terrible time right now--almost lost their house three times to foreclosure, because of financial difficulties. And it's been that way for them for quite a while, which leads me to believe that trying to make a living purely from art can be a very shaky proposition...
Sure, I would love to have made a living in photography.....and maybe even reached the exalted status of a David Douglas Duncan. But I guess I'll go with Elliot Erwitt when he was asked about going into photography as a career these days: "Don't."
Had to face up to the fact my talent level is such that I'd have a hard time trying to make it as a photog--way too many folks much better at it than me.
Thing is, photography is one of those glamor professions--like rock star--which everybody wants to do. And because so many really talented people want to do it, competition is brutal, and very few ever make it...just like all the really talented musicians who never make the big time.
As it is, my chosen profession allows me to live fairly comfortably, buy cameras, and noodle in photography to the best of my ability. Anyway....I got into photography by accident, more or less, after making my career choice, and going through the long and expensive training for it. That's my excuse....
Also, I have the discouraging example of a friend who is a pro photog. She and her significant other (who also makes his living in photography ) are having a terrible time right now--almost lost their house three times to foreclosure, because of financial difficulties. And it's been that way for them for quite a while, which leads me to believe that trying to make a living purely from art can be a very shaky proposition...
Sure, I would love to have made a living in photography.....and maybe even reached the exalted status of a David Douglas Duncan. But I guess I'll go with Elliot Erwitt when he was asked about going into photography as a career these days: "Don't."
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Probably, most people who dream of earning a living from photography underestimate the talent, dedication, hard work and sheer luck that is necessary even to survive. Paul's parallel with rock stars is exact -- unless, perhaps, you're prepared to concentrate on a particular aspect of commercial or advertising photography where chartered accountancy is a closer match; or, as others have said, to do 'grip and grin' pics for the local rag. The glamorous, jet-setting, cutting-edge side of it is very hard indeed to achieve, and many 'big names' who shoot internationally must needs live remarkably modestly in order to feed their photojournalistic habit.
Cheers,
R.
Cheers,
R.
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
Dear Roger,
my encounter with photography only happened some seven, eight years ago, by chance. I got divorced and decided to get a camera so I could at least document my children growing up while not being around all the time.
Things evolved unexpectedly. I took on a teaching job, my kids came to live with me and I got into photography big time. But, always as a (seriously out of proportions) hobby.
Had I started in my twenties, I would have had a shot at doing whatever I felt like in photography and make a living off it. As kids, bills and responsibilities entered the equasion I probably would have gotten stuck in portraits, weddings and the likes and it would have gotten the best of my motivation for photography very quickly I reckon.
So, I do not regret not having worked in photography and I would not have made more money.
Yet, I do consider turning to photography in the future once the kids have left the house and my focus can be less on income.
my encounter with photography only happened some seven, eight years ago, by chance. I got divorced and decided to get a camera so I could at least document my children growing up while not being around all the time.
Things evolved unexpectedly. I took on a teaching job, my kids came to live with me and I got into photography big time. But, always as a (seriously out of proportions) hobby.
Had I started in my twenties, I would have had a shot at doing whatever I felt like in photography and make a living off it. As kids, bills and responsibilities entered the equasion I probably would have gotten stuck in portraits, weddings and the likes and it would have gotten the best of my motivation for photography very quickly I reckon.
So, I do not regret not having worked in photography and I would not have made more money.
Yet, I do consider turning to photography in the future once the kids have left the house and my focus can be less on income.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Johan,
Thanks for your reply (and thanks to many others, too, whom I have not thanked enough). Surprisingly (distressingly?) few of the photographers I know have children, or at least, earned a living from photography while their children were growing up. Quite a few have been divorced at least once. I don't think that photography as a career is necessarily good for family life, even for a 2-person family.
Cheers,
R.
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
Gotta add that a career in journalism is probably the same with regards to that! Which kind of explains my choices regarding photography, I started out being educated as a broadcast journalist but once my oldest arrived I gave up on journalism because a more solid way of life and income were in order. Guess that made me aware of the fact that photography would be the same thing all over again.
Tompas
Wannabe Künstler
1 - not applicable (anymore)
2 - yes. I worked as a PJ/sports photographer for a local newspaper while going to school; had lots of very different jobs while at and after university, including being assistant political scientist and senior Unix guru and other completely unrelated things; finally going home and succeeding my father in the family business.
3 - no, no regrets. Photography is such a wonderful hobby for me, I'm glad it is not my job.
2 - yes. I worked as a PJ/sports photographer for a local newspaper while going to school; had lots of very different jobs while at and after university, including being assistant political scientist and senior Unix guru and other completely unrelated things; finally going home and succeeding my father in the family business.
3 - no, no regrets. Photography is such a wonderful hobby for me, I'm glad it is not my job.
ferider
Veteran
FWIW:
1 Not applicable.
2 No way.
3 No - I love what I do for a living.
Still I do take photography "seriously". Like cooking, for example, it's fun, complicated and rewarding enough to give me a break from my day job.
Roland.
1 Not applicable.
2 No way.
3 No - I love what I do for a living.
Still I do take photography "seriously". Like cooking, for example, it's fun, complicated and rewarding enough to give me a break from my day job.
Roland.
f/14
Established
1) No. Did consider it seriously at high school though. And in early university days. Way back in the 1960'. Spent weekends walking the streets with a B/W camera. And countless nights in the darkroom. All the way until sunrise.
2) No. My daytime jobs over the years in larger telecom corporations has provided more income.
3) Not any more. Have photographed all the time and have slowly built up a kit of fairly professional equipment. Analog for 40 years and now digital in parallel. With livelihood and equipment issues out of the way this has left time to focus on my own B/W projects, - for whatever the results might be worth artistically. And time to follow other peoples' work through their exhibitions and books. With hindsight probably the best of both worlds in my case.
2) No. My daytime jobs over the years in larger telecom corporations has provided more income.
3) Not any more. Have photographed all the time and have slowly built up a kit of fairly professional equipment. Analog for 40 years and now digital in parallel. With livelihood and equipment issues out of the way this has left time to focus on my own B/W projects, - for whatever the results might be worth artistically. And time to follow other peoples' work through their exhibitions and books. With hindsight probably the best of both worlds in my case.
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KM-25
Well-known
If you would have asked me this about 3 months ago, I would have given a different answer, but times are not only quickly getting back to normal, they are starting to be on par to pre-economic crash levels. Magazine and newspapers assignments up as well as advertising and even stock sales.
So here it goes:
1. There is most likely not any way I could ever know if I could have made more money in another profession other than photography because it is not a job for me, it is a life and lifestyle choice that pays me full time. Asking me this is like asking me if I could have made more money being another person. In the past 7 years of my 20+ year career, I have made a *very* good income, on par with those with masters and PHD degrees in well paid fields.
2. Does not apply to me.
3. No regrets at all, I get to shoot any time I want, what I want in the style I want, even use film and bill it if I want. I get to do photography for my self and never get bored or tired of it. Add to that I *LOVE* the challenge of an assignment, being taken out of my comfort zone, competition, budget challenges, tough to tame people, making stressed clients feel great, getting it right in a team environment and seeing it all from a client's perspective. I like the bidding war, the second guessing who is low balling the job or sale and saying no if it is out of my range, the standing up for my work and the fee it commands, it all just rocks!
I just spent a week in my hi tech 4x4 camper with my wife and even my cat miles away from anyone shooting for my next book project. We actually had 3G reception so we got to take care of business on our iPad-2 out in the boonies, even made a nice stock sale, a solar system charges the pad and our phones.
The Kodachrome Project was great and rough for me at the same time, it nearly killed me financially and I wondered what clients I would have left after I was done. But life is good again and work is great, all my clients are proud of what I did and are happy to see me back.
I would not be nearly as happy doing photography as a hobby and having another job, I simply would have never lived the life I have in doing photography in the first place.
So here it goes:
1. There is most likely not any way I could ever know if I could have made more money in another profession other than photography because it is not a job for me, it is a life and lifestyle choice that pays me full time. Asking me this is like asking me if I could have made more money being another person. In the past 7 years of my 20+ year career, I have made a *very* good income, on par with those with masters and PHD degrees in well paid fields.
2. Does not apply to me.
3. No regrets at all, I get to shoot any time I want, what I want in the style I want, even use film and bill it if I want. I get to do photography for my self and never get bored or tired of it. Add to that I *LOVE* the challenge of an assignment, being taken out of my comfort zone, competition, budget challenges, tough to tame people, making stressed clients feel great, getting it right in a team environment and seeing it all from a client's perspective. I like the bidding war, the second guessing who is low balling the job or sale and saying no if it is out of my range, the standing up for my work and the fee it commands, it all just rocks!
I just spent a week in my hi tech 4x4 camper with my wife and even my cat miles away from anyone shooting for my next book project. We actually had 3G reception so we got to take care of business on our iPad-2 out in the boonies, even made a nice stock sale, a solar system charges the pad and our phones.
The Kodachrome Project was great and rough for me at the same time, it nearly killed me financially and I wondered what clients I would have left after I was done. But life is good again and work is great, all my clients are proud of what I did and are happy to see me back.
I would not be nearly as happy doing photography as a hobby and having another job, I simply would have never lived the life I have in doing photography in the first place.
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kipkeston
Well-known
Cool thread.
1: I think on a per hour rate, I earn much more as a photog than as a scientist (at the level I'm at) but a lot of paid work can be kind of stressful so I prefer science.
2: Questions one and two are confusing. They are kind of the same question to me.
3: I don't regret science vs photography. I only wish I had more time for personal projects. But don't we all?
1: I think on a per hour rate, I earn much more as a photog than as a scientist (at the level I'm at) but a lot of paid work can be kind of stressful so I prefer science.
2: Questions one and two are confusing. They are kind of the same question to me.
3: I don't regret science vs photography. I only wish I had more time for personal projects. But don't we all?