Lauffray
Invisible Cities
This is an idea I've been thinking about for a while. I've been printing on my own for almost a year now and I've read some books and experimented and I feel I'm hitting a plateau in that area. I strongly believe in learning from others, not necessarily copying their methods but at least being exposed to other ways of doing/thinking, questioning and adapting those methods to my own.
Are there any experienced printers who wouldn't mind being shadowed as they work and bombarded with questions ? Preferably in town but maybe also NYC as I travel there quite often (or used to at least)
Are there any experienced printers who wouldn't mind being shadowed as they work and bombarded with questions ? Preferably in town but maybe also NYC as I travel there quite often (or used to at least)
CK Dexter Haven
Well-known
Maybe find a class?
Or, offer to pay someone at a lab or school — like a private class/consultant fee — for some after hours tutelage?
Anything specific you're trying to learn?
Or, offer to pay someone at a lab or school — like a private class/consultant fee — for some after hours tutelage?
Anything specific you're trying to learn?
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
Jerome,
In art school back in the day (1970's), I learned that making good negatives was the easiest way to make good prints. I was trained to make negatives that had the proper contrast that could be straight printed on a straight grade number 2 paper after having nailed the principles of multigrade filters.
John who you know from the NYC Meet-Up also went to art school, but he was trained to print on a straight grade of 3.
I was also taught a lot of discipline about consistency with not only exposure, but time and temperature. The more control I got the more I learned, and this sped up my results. On top of that I would make go through a box of 8x10 in a weekend.
My negatives were very easy to print, not a lot of dodging and burning was required, and most times I just agitated locally the highlights when the print lay in the tray of developer if required. I got to a point were I did not have to make test strips and I could squint and stop down the enlarger lens to the correct F-stop for my exposure because my eye was trained to recognize the correct amount of light required. The idea in art school is learn how to make a good negative that you can just straight print, and then learn how to consistently repeat that process.
I just saved you about 4 years and tens of thousands of Loonies. John also one said, "The best tool is a trained eye." I was a good printer back then, but I think my eye has gotten better, and when I get back into the darkroom again I'm sure it will be like getting on a bicycle.
Although I don't shoot large format there's a lot to learn from those forums. Very technical, lots of information, and these shooters really care about IQ and printing big. In a way I tend to shoot like a large format photographer, even though I only shoot small and medium format. Also know that I've been printing digitally the output from my Monochrom for a year now, and the wet printing that developed my eye surely has helped make me a better digital printer.
Cal
Lauffray
Invisible Cities
Thanks Cal, great advice. Do you still print on fixed grade or do you use multigrade paper now ?
I want to be exposed to different ways of doing things, and maybe pick up a way to improve my method, speed up some things I do, find out if something I thought was important is in fact irrelevant etc
I also have some practical questions about specific techniques, like burning skies or split grade printing. I've read a lot, but I'm the kind that learns best by doing
I want to be exposed to different ways of doing things, and maybe pick up a way to improve my method, speed up some things I do, find out if something I thought was important is in fact irrelevant etc
I also have some practical questions about specific techniques, like burning skies or split grade printing. I've read a lot, but I'm the kind that learns best by doing
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
Jerome,
I outgrew using resin coated multigrade papers decades ago, in fact for me it took only one semester (my first). The idea of my advice, and what they teach you in 4 years of art school is to get enough control that you only need one straight grade of paper (fiber) to print negatives that are easy to straight print. Think like a large format shooter who is making a negative that is going to be contact printed. This is the challenge. Does not matter if you are shooting small format because the idea is that you are optimizing your negative for just one paper.
When my photography professor noticed that I got a level of consistency that other students did not possess he told me to start buying grade 2 fiber and adjust my negatives for the contrast of the paper.
Once you can do this you already are a pretty good printer. This seems to be the most basic skill required to become a fine art printer that they taught in all art schools. Not sure if all art schools have darkrooms anymore.
Today I'm only printing digitally using an Epson 3880 (17 inch wide) and a Epson 7800 (24 inch wide) using Piezography (7 shades of black). It seems the eye I developed from analog printing has helped me a lot with the digital printing. Really remarkable what I have done in one year. I have a Besseler 23C in storage because I don't have the space to set up my darkroom in Madhattan.
Cal
Lauffray
Invisible Cities
What's the advantage of fixed grade paper over multigrade ?
Lauffray
Invisible Cities
I'm using Ilford Multigrade FB not RC, I'm not even sure I can find fixed grade paper in store.
chikne
Well-known
Frankly I don't really understand this idea of 'starting with a good neg and they will print themselves.
This kinda resonates with the ken rockwell idea that you should buy a camera with a good jpeg engine and you won't have any troubles...
This kinda resonates with the ken rockwell idea that you should buy a camera with a good jpeg engine and you won't have any troubles...
chikne
Well-known
I would add that if you could learn to draw with charcoal, it could be beneficial. Either life drawing or landscape...
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
Fred has the concept that they teach in art schools. First benefit is it teaches you how to be consistent really fast because you are concentrating on only one thing. Using multicontrast papers can be looked upon as a crutch, a crutch that IMHO can hold you back because contrast is so easy to correct. When I say consistent it means having that control in both developing film and printing. It is the combination of these two processes that become like a dance that involves two people and not two solo operations. Don't forget consistency in image capture and now you are choreographing three dancers. Optimizing for one grade of paper is an intergrative process where everything counts. Think of three dancers dancing together to put on a show together and not three solo performances.
Second thing it teaches and strengthens fundamental skills like exposure and composition to visualize the shot before printing. Can you control negative density to the point where you get a full tonal range regardless of light? Are your negatives easy to print? Do you require lots of dodging and burning to make up for bad or less than optimal exposure?
Third thing it teaches you is to use filters to control contrast at image capture which is something I feel most B&W shooters don't do. Do you try to optimize contrast at image capture? Steve once said, "You can't print what's not there." Pretty easy on a bright day to have skies print white blowing out the clouds as blown highlights. Again shoot like how a large format shooter would... get everything right at image capture for contact printing even though I'm shooting small format.
Fourthly is as you skill developes so will your artistic vision, then you will discover a voice, a vision, a signature, and a style that is your own.
"Less is more." If you are doing everything correctly your skills advance rapidly. Consider yourself lucky that you are a printer, not only because it is becoming a lost art, but also because becoming a good or great printer will make you into a better photographer. To me this is pure old school.
Graded papers are readily available, but not necessarily in resin coated. Graded papers are looked upon as more pro and less consumerish and are higher ended (cost more).
I don't like how resin coated papers look either (look like a sheet of plastic). In a fine art sense, and fine art printing, fiber prints cost more and maintain the traditional look of a silver wet print which commands a premium. Art dealers and galleries want the fiber prints over resin coated.
Cal
chikne
Well-known
I dunno frankly, sounds more like a headache as oppose to something creative i.e. freeing your mind.
At least if you're learning charcoal drawing you're starting with a blank piece of paper and choose where to add tones of black (light) and where to remove with your eraser (bleach), etc...
Alternatively I'd look at the work of competent people who print their own stuff (not magnum)...
At least if you're learning charcoal drawing you're starting with a blank piece of paper and choose where to add tones of black (light) and where to remove with your eraser (bleach), etc...
Alternatively I'd look at the work of competent people who print their own stuff (not magnum)...
Lauffray
Invisible Cities
Cal you are a fountain of knowledge, I'm buying you a beer next time I'm in NYC
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
Jerome,
Like I said I saved you tens of thousands of Loonies...
Printing really can advance your photography and make you a better photographer. The time you spend in the darkroom is well spent.
Not that I'm a shooter like W. Eugene Smith, but I would love to be a shooter and printer like him. His downfall though was that he loved control so much that editors black listed him.
Cal
calebarchie
Established
Just putting this here but in this thread I do not see someone who is entirely willing to learn or at least is looking for an easy way out.
I see this happen in a lot of forums and groups, a kind of selective learning and disregard of others approaches. If you really want to learn this attitude is not healthy and a real detriment to your experience, try everything and explore for yourself to find what best suits you. Don't be afraid to detach from the conventional and not be directed by the 'internet'.
Very much like AA v Mortensen practices.
Irony of this thread being the opposite of you originally requested, to be be exposed to other ways of working. In short, I wouldn't disregard what chikne or anybody else is saying. Perhaps even reading some psychology books will help and lastly don't forget to have fun
I see this happen in a lot of forums and groups, a kind of selective learning and disregard of others approaches. If you really want to learn this attitude is not healthy and a real detriment to your experience, try everything and explore for yourself to find what best suits you. Don't be afraid to detach from the conventional and not be directed by the 'internet'.
Very much like AA v Mortensen practices.
Irony of this thread being the opposite of you originally requested, to be be exposed to other ways of working. In short, I wouldn't disregard what chikne or anybody else is saying. Perhaps even reading some psychology books will help and lastly don't forget to have fun
calebarchie
Established
Ansel Adams vs. William Mortensen and their contrasting approaches and viewpoints on photography and printing etc
I recall some recent APUG thread on it if you want to search for that. All very interesting.
I recall some recent APUG thread on it if you want to search for that. All very interesting.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
Just putting this here but in this thread I do not see someone who is entirely willing to learn or at least is looking for an easy way out.
I see this happen in a lot of forums and groups, a kind of selective learning and disregard of others approaches. If you really want to learn this attitude is not healthy and a real detriment to your experience, try everything and explore for yourself to find what best suits you. Don't be afraid to detach from the conventional and not be directed by the 'internet'.
Very much like AA v Mortensen practices.
Irony of this thread being the opposite of you originally requested, to be be exposed to other ways of working. In short, I wouldn't disregard what chikne or anybody else is saying. Perhaps even reading some psychology books will help and lastly don't forget to have fun
I assure you that my suggestions do not discount other people's approaches. I will also say way back when, before the Internet, the approach I am sharing was no more than pushing someone gently in one direction and was more of a guideline (utilized in many university art programs) to advance skill rapidly with few if any constraints on exploration.
I can ensure you that rigid thinking, constrained thinking, or limiting ones bounds on knowledge was not the intent of this exercise. By no means am I imposing: I'm trying to be helpful and share an experience.
I do not think what I'm suggesting is an easy way out. In fact it is a great challenge that continues today. Making a perfect negative is elusive and kinda rare. Just because I express myself clearly and concisely does not mean I am not humble.
I found the reference to charcoal drawing off topic and not really helpful. While I don't dismiss other skills like composition that can be intergrated from painting and drawing, I did not meantion that back in art school I was primarily a painter because it added little to this discussion.
As far as the Internet: it seems one has to filter a lot of negative spin and incorrect and incomplete information that is not helpful. A good example is this thread.
Cal
I know Cal is not big on this... but Ilford multigrade fiber is a great paper and I loved the matte version of this paper. With a clean set of filters, you will get great results with this paper. And while Cal thinks its a crutch, I think it is a good way to learn where your negatives will naturally print... meaning which grade paper you'll usually need if you want to use graded papers for the reasons (mostly surface texture / tone) that others have mentioned.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
John,
Back in the day (1970's) it seemed I organically made negatives that printed well on grade 2. Prior to that I used Ilford Multigrade on that path of discovery.
You are correct that for my eye I found/discovered that Grade 2 was correct for me. Similarly you discovered that Grade 3 was mostly right for you.
Cal
I have nothing against multigrade paper, but I come from the era of really ugly multigrade. I am useless, opinion-wise when it comes to today. I sold my Leitz enlarger 15 years ago.
I haven't been in a darkroom since the late 90s... and by that point I was doing mostly color. I do miss Agfa Portriga though... wonderfully warm and textured.
Yep Cal, I think it is most likely a good start for Jerome until he discovers what works best for him. I do miss that multigrade matte as well... it was like a pencil drawing at times.