Calzone
Gear Whore #1
I have nothing against multigrade paper, but I come from the era of really ugly multigrade. I am useless, opinion-wise when it comes to today. I sold my Leitz enlarger 15 years ago.
The one thing I regret in my recent past is not using my university photo lab, which was truly a first rate facility for black and white printing. I just never seemed to get around to finding time.
Fred,
In college I was Photo Editor and Darkroom Manager for the student newspaper. The huge benefit was that I had my own office and personal darkroom where I had 24 hour access. I spent a lot of time printing and developing. I developed lots of skill through practice.
Cal
hepcat
Former PH, USN
I spent the better part of two years in a Navy photolab darkroom, daily doing custom and quantity hand-printing from about twenty different photographers' negatives. Cal's advice is advice that is worth following. Too many "guys who own cameras" today expect that framing, pressing the shutter release, and letting the camera do the work is "photography" and as they grow, are disappointed in their results.
A significant theme in really learning how to be a photographer is learning consistency. Consistency in learning the properties of a single film emulsion. Consistency in exposure and filter application. Consistency in learning the properties of a single film developing process, and consistency in printing those negatives. If you can't produce consistency, you can't deviate from it consistently. If your results are random, you can't replicate either your successes or failures. You have to know, understand, and own the rules before you can creatively break them.
Narcissistic "photographers" eschew the "rules" and tell us they're not important, but the truth is that any photographers' work that takes your breath away not only understood the rules, but are consistent about their work. And when they deviate from them and make something amazing, it's seldom accidental. Once again that consistency comes into play. Of course, that takes self-discipline, time, and hard work. Often folks in the digital age aren't willing to put the time in it takes to learn consistency and self-discipline.
So, if you really want to learn to print well, learn how to print consistently, and as you learn how to do that, you'll also learn what makes a good negative, and what makes one print dull and unexciting and the next one snap... and then you can consistent make prints that snap. THEN you can begin to vary the process (once you really HAVE a process) if you want to begin to explore alternative processes... consistently.
A significant theme in really learning how to be a photographer is learning consistency. Consistency in learning the properties of a single film emulsion. Consistency in exposure and filter application. Consistency in learning the properties of a single film developing process, and consistency in printing those negatives. If you can't produce consistency, you can't deviate from it consistently. If your results are random, you can't replicate either your successes or failures. You have to know, understand, and own the rules before you can creatively break them.
Narcissistic "photographers" eschew the "rules" and tell us they're not important, but the truth is that any photographers' work that takes your breath away not only understood the rules, but are consistent about their work. And when they deviate from them and make something amazing, it's seldom accidental. Once again that consistency comes into play. Of course, that takes self-discipline, time, and hard work. Often folks in the digital age aren't willing to put the time in it takes to learn consistency and self-discipline.
So, if you really want to learn to print well, learn how to print consistently, and as you learn how to do that, you'll also learn what makes a good negative, and what makes one print dull and unexciting and the next one snap... and then you can consistent make prints that snap. THEN you can begin to vary the process (once you really HAVE a process) if you want to begin to explore alternative processes... consistently.
calebarchie
Established
Cal, please don't think my comments were a direct response to yours, more so to the OP in where he chooses to take his learning experience. Everything you have contributed is valid and so is everything else.
Just a reminder to the OP to stay open minded and don't be afraid to explore more obscure forms to learn from. Especially if you find yourself hitting a wall.
Consistency is indeed key, that is why I love my digital negative process.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
C,
Please elaborate more on your digital negative process. This is very interesting to me.
Cal
Laviolette
Established
Bonjour Jérôme,
Bob Carnie gives darkroom workshop in Toronto : http://www.bobcarnieprintmaking.ca/index.html
I don't know anyone doing the same in Montreal sadly. If you hear about someone, please let me know as I too could be interested in taking a workshop and learning a few techniques.
I agree with Cal's comment on consistency, and I think consistency must be present in every steps of the process, from metering the scene to developing the negative to printing. A good straight print is really easier to achieve from a good negative with good shadow detail. But a straight print is just the beginning and what I think is the real beauty of the darkroom work is taking this first print and make it stronger and more effective with all the tools we have on hand in the darkroom.
It is probably my musical training (I'm a professional concert pianist), but what Ansel Adams said about the negative being the score and the print being the performance seems very true to me. When I am learning a new piano piece, I will analyze it to understand what are the key elements and what is their relationship. Some things are more important and must be put in the spotlight, while other things may seem secondary but they might help to reinforce the effect of the whole composition. I like to bring that way of thinking into my darkroom work. I might crop if there are too many superfluous things or burn to help direct the eye toward the subject. I might be wrong but I am having fun, so who cares!
Learning to critic our work in a constructive way is not easy. IMHO, it is easier when you are revisiting work you did some time ago. Sometimes I will come back to an older print I made, analyze it and see how I could do it better.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
Fred,
I use to be a die-hard B&W analog film only kinda guy. I performed only image capture shooting mucho film thinking I would wet print later. My negatives are likely a bit too dense and are not optimized for scanning, and my thinking was why would I effectively want to take the same shot twice, which effectively scanning (making a digital copy from film) is.
When Leica created the Monochrom, I made the jump. Since January of last year I have been digitally printing Monochrom files using an Epson 3880 ( bought the Monochrom when it first came out) and Piezography (seven shades of black). The results are stunning and I quickly learned that the 3880 (17 inch printer) is too small a printer.
Through divine intervention (too many things had to happen right) I got a Epson 7800 that only made 1802 prints over its 9 year life before I bought it for $100.00. The 7800 was used just enough to avoid clogs, yet remains a fresh printer because it was seldom used. Soon I will empty the Piezoflush that I installed to maintain and store the 7800 and load ink. I was at the right place at the right time, a friend with a car offered delivery, and everything fell into place. Mike was moving back to Japan and was not going to take the 7800.
Come to the January NYC Meet-Up and see some of these prints this Sunday. By changing out two ink slots I can print digital negatives for contact printing on Ilford silver fiber paper on overhead projection film. Jon Cone has already done the heavy lifting. I need studio space and a vacuum frame and I'm where I want to be. I never thought I would need an Imacon or drum scanner, but now I have to consider it. The prints are that good.
Cal
Hsg
who dares wins
I had a look at your flickr account and your photos seem very popular with 20+ favorites for some of them. And i assume those photos are scans of prints.
Continue to do whatever you're doing and forget about shadowing anyone, because no one is going to teach you for free. And by free I don't mean money only.
calebarchie
Established
Cal, I have tried lots of different digital negative processes, from Ron Reeder to Mark Nilson to Dan Burkholder and many more. Using PS curves, QTR ink curves, blocking colours etc etc which they all work well for alt process but not so much for silver.
Currently I employ Rosenburgs process which I find is the best for silver from all my testing. It is definitely a bit more complex and nuanced but offers a lot of advantages and a great deal more control in the process.
Since it is linear also I combine it with split-grade filtering for even more control without having to reprint the negative for minor adjustments. My setup is simple, I have an old epson r1800 (restored with piezoflush) with the standard ink set - the 1.5 picolitre droplets it offers works wonders for digital negatives. I also should have a drum scanner coming soon, have not used Cones ink-set yet but I imagine it would only improve results but for now I'm doing just fine, maybe when I have the space to get a larger printer.
Photomoof, for the digital negative route I find you must be pretty well versed in digital editing/photography in general. It is rather a steep learning curve and even more so if you have a hard time with digital.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
C,
Jon Cone has three different methods: one is for digital silver using an Ilford Fiber paper; but the other two are for alternative processes (one is Carbon printing).
I would have to investigate what is involved in downloading curves, and by no means am I as far along as you in making digital negatives, but since I believe what I said about the method for silver prints might apply to the two alternative processes (I only have to change two ink slots to be able to print digital negatives on overhead transparency film) we might be able to help each other further on down the road.
Wouldn't it be great to adapt Jon Cone's methods to print just like a large format shooter on Kodak AZO.
Let's talk some more. I already have the printers and most of the ink already loaded. Do you have a mucho large vacuum frame? And how large do you print? Where are you located?
Cal
calebarchie
Established
Sure thing, just shoot me a pm, happy to have a chat and answer any questions you may have. I am located in Australia.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
Fred,
I was lucky to have many many great mentors, but unfortunately I have probably disappointed all of them. They saw great talent and were all so generous, but back in the day I was poor, had no family, and was a scary guy who also was a major head case.
One of my art professors made me his artist assistant and constantly fed me work so I could sustain myself. For one entire summer he gave me the keys to his loft in Soho while he was away where I kinda was the general contractor overlooking and safeguarding a loft that was being built out on Grand Street in SoHo.
I did photography for Ed and got my name mentioned with Lewis W. Hines in Art Forum for photo credits. I also had spring break in Ed's other loft on Broome Street.
In art school I definately got a lot of preferential treatment because I displayed great talent and promise, but I was a mess and so was my life. I had the responsibility of taking care of myself with no family and in the end it took me a decade to get a 4 year degree. Now I have a MA and MFA.
In a way I relied on the kindness of total strangers that did not disappoint me. I owe a lot to them... and I never thought I would become an old man.
Cal
chikne
Well-known
So you're making a negative from an inkjet printer is it?
Hsg
who dares wins
I have attended the lectures of some magnum members here in Toronto, during Contact Photo festival. what I learned from these lectures was a simple answer to all my photography-related questions, put into words by Alex Webb, "your only teacher is your own photos".
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
Chikne,
Not yet, but that is where I would like to go.
What is holding me back is that I live in Madhattan and don't have studio space for even a darkroom. Of course contact printing from digital negatives requires a vacuum frame for best results. The idea is make a perfect negative and contact print limited editions. I would need lots of studio space.
Currently this is what I have: a 27 inch Eizo, a 3880, a 7800 and a three year old maxed out Macbook Pro. At this point I am printing the output from my Monochrom and not scanning (know that I shoot lots of medium format) using a warm neutral to selenium splitone inkset that I blended. I'm using a QuadtoneRIP and not the Epson OEM driver for higher resolution. I've been only printing digitally for now a little more than a year, but last year I spent $8.2K in paper and ink. The initial $5K total was to feed the 3880 and the more recent $3.2K is to feed the 7800 which I don't have online yet. I basically stuck with only one paper (Jone Cone Type 5) and only recently am I exploring other papers.
If you are interested in this process there is extensive info at Jon Cone's website, but I have to warn you that it almost requires a masters in journalism because it is an overload of information that requires filtering and sorting. PM me if you have questions. Understand that I still develop lots of film, even though it is inconvenient with a girlfriend, a dog and using a changing bag.
Cal
POSTSCRIPT: Fred, Piezography is kinda turnkey, but it favors the larger Pro printers. The 3880 is marginal IMHO because of paper handling limitations, and also because the resolution and fidelity of Piezography is so high. Only worth it if you want to print big or for exhibition.
chikne
Well-known
How would you say this negative from inkjet system rate as opposed to making an inkjet print which you would copy, with a copy camera, on 5x4 film which would then be used for enlargement?
purely out of curiosity...
purely out of curiosity...
Capt. E
Established
I remember Fred Picker's advice 30+ years ago. Get a deep freezer and fill it up with paper and film, enough to last you your lifetime. By the early 80's, many fine quality papers were already gone. I would love to still have some Oriental Seagull.
calebarchie
Established
Digital negatives aren't able to be enlarged with sufficient quality - limited to contact prints only. You can certainly try and experiment for yourself, perhaps with a very large inkjet print but even photographing that is a challenge without some kind of vacuum easel set up.
Such a method has downsides too in that there will be a piece of film with the limited Drange of reflective media. If you want to enlarge generally you would go down the film recording route to have the highest quality, archival master negative.
hepcat
Former PH, USN
I am certainly glad that I didn't follow that advice as a youngster. I'd have missed out on SO much. One of the things I've been able to learn over the years about photography is that there are two areas of knowledge: those things I know, and that it's important to know about those things I don't know. The few things I know, I know well. There are, however, lots of those things I know that I don't know... and that's where the instruction of others is invaluable.
As a follow up to my original post, I would liken photo printing to playing a musical instrument. The basics are pretty easy to learn. Then you practice for consistency of tone and technique. That practice takes a long time for most folks... and a LOT of practice. Once you've achieved consistency of tone and technique, then you can begin to develop nuance and subsequently, style.
mdarnton
Well-known
I spent a substantial part of my photography career in the darkroom printing other peoples' work. This idea here that a great printer is one who makes great negatives that need only be printed on one grade of paper----that sounds as bad to me as the idea that a great driver is one who can drive perfectly on a straight, well-paved road with no ice and no other traffic.
I think that Cal is speaking of printing his work...and making it as easy as possible. Of course, when printing other people's work, you can't depend on consistency.