Shooting high speed film queries

[CopperB]

I'm about to try my first high speed film for night shooting this weekend at our annual fall fair (3200 B&W). After some helpful suggestions about use of yellow & red filters to bring higher speed films down to 400 ASA, I began to wonder if there are any shooters who regularly shoot 800+ film and just use filters to bring down the exposure to the beloved 400 as needed?

Keep in mind that I've only been shooting film for a year and don't know much about the characteristics of higher speed films (ie increased grain with high speed films). That said, it seems like a practical approach to the drawback of not being able to adjust ISO for different situations as one can with digital. Have you tried it and what was your experience? Am I way out in left field (being a south paw, I usually am)?

I'm here to learn. 😉

 

[Paul Luscher]

Guess my answer would be to use the film appropriate to the situation. Don't know when you're planning on shooting, but if it's after dark or low light, 1600-3200 all the way.

Otherwise I'd carry both 400 and high speed film and as the light conditions changed, I'd switch out films.

 

[drewbarb]

Be careful. There's really no such thing as a 3200 speed film. By most accounts, Ilford Delta 3200 and Kodak's Tmax 3200 are in fact only about 800-1200 true speed films. To use these films at speeds above this still requires push processing- and to get to 3200, you'll need to push your film processing two full stops or more. Even then, you'll get big grain and let's say less than excellent contrast curves.

The best results I've ever seen personally for high speed shooting was from Tri-X, believe it or not. Expose at 1600 and process in Ilford Microphen, full strength (not diluted!) for 13 minutes at 70 degrees F. Agitate for the first 30 seconds, then give three inversions per minute. The results are seriously impressive; the grain and contrast range looks an awful lot like Tri-X shot at 400 and run in D76.

Whatever film and speeds you choose, for my money Microphen used full strength is the best push process developer out there. Use it full strength, though- not diluted. The grain and contrast you'll get from most films exposed at higher speeds will be about as good as they can get. I've pushed Plus-X to 400 (accidentally exposed but saved with this developer); Tri-X, as I've said will push to 1600 nicely, and even further (though with diminishing returns beyond this speed, IMO); Delta 3200 exposed at 3200 and pushed 2 1/2 stops is acceptable. Most films will push to some degree in this soup.

Anyway, whatever you do, the first thing I'll suggest to you is that you do some testing of films and developers yourself to find what works for you. Buy a few of rolls of any film you're thinking of trying, and choose a good push developer (Microphen is obviously my choice) and shoot tests and process until you find a combo that gives you the results you're after. Find a combination you like before you shoot anything you want to keep.

 

[CopperB]

Guess my answer would be to use the film appropriate to the situation. Don't know when you're planning on shooting, but if it's after dark or low light, 1600-3200 all the way.

Otherwise I'd carry both 400 and high speed film and as the light conditions changed, I'd switch out films.

Ah yes but if you're not finished the 400 film then...

 

[CopperB]

Be careful. There's really no such thing as a 3200 speed film. By most accounts, Ilford Delta 3200 and Kodak's Tmax 3200 are in fact only about 800-1200 true speed films. To use these films at speeds above this still requires push processing- and to get to 3200, you'll need to push your film processing two full stops or more. Even then, you'll get big grain and let's say less than excellent contrast curves.

The best results I've ever seen personally for high speed shooting was from Tri-X, believe it or not. Expose at 1600 and process in Ilford Microphen, full strength (not diluted!) for 13 minutes at 70 degrees F. Agitate for the first 30 seconds, then give three inversions per minute. The results are seriously impressive; the grain and contrast range looks an awful lot like Tri-X shot at 400 and run in D76.

Whatever film and speeds you choose, for my money Microphen used full strength is the best push process developer out there. Use it full strength, though- not diluted. The grain and contrast you'll get from most films exposed at higher speeds will be about as good as they can get. I've pushed Plus-X to 400 (accidentally exposed but saved with this developer); Tri-X, as I've said will push to 1600 nicely, and even further (though with diminishing returns beyond this speed, IMO); Delta 3200 exposed at 3200 and pushed 2 1/2 stops is acceptable. Most films will push to some degree in this soup.

Anyway, whatever you do, the first thing I'll suggest to you is that you do some testing of films and developers yourself to find what works for you. Buy a few of rolls of any film you're thinking of trying, and choose a good push developer (Microphen is obviously my choice) and shoot tests and process until you find a combo that gives you the results you're after. Find a combination you like before you shoot anything you want to keep.

The whole push/pull bit is still a bit confusing to me. If you're shooting 3200 exposed for 3200 I should instruct the lab to push it 2.5 stops? I'm not yet developing my own film. 😱

 

[CopperB]

I used to be a strictly HC-110 guy for a lot of reasons. Having said that, I have to agree with Louisville drewbarb vis-a-vis the Tri-X and Microphen. It looks a lot better than Ilford's 3200 or Fuji's 1600 stuff. Love Rodinal too. And the fact that you can get Tri-X rebadged at Freestyle makes for inexpensive simplification.

Do yourself a favor: Stick with the Tri-X for everything, soup with Microphen when pushing more than two stops and with HC-110 or D76 when shooting the stock at less than rated speed. Even better, use the Microphen for everything. This will build, only if you stick with it for at least a year or two and a few hundred rolls, real control over your images. Or at least the negatives.

Have fun!

A question for you. What do you mean by this building only if I stick with it for at least a year or two? My skill will build using the Microphen?

 

[JayGannon]

By stivcking with one film and developer you start to build a real feel for the nuance of developing it, you'll find you make your own exact times and agitations and get the film exactly has you like.

 

[CopperB]

By stivcking with one film and developer you start to build a real feel for the nuance of developing it, you'll find you make your own exact times and agitations and get the film exactly has you like.

Got you. Thanks for the clarification Jay. I've got to get my a** in gear and set that up so I can learn to soup my own film. It's getting really expensive. 😱

 

[JayGannon]

Got you. Thanks for the clarification Jay. I've got to get my a** in gear and set that up so I can learn to soup my own film. It's getting really expensive. 😱

Seriously buy one of the kits that include everything you need and shoot a few junk rolls to practise on, its very scary the first 2/3 times then its easy as pie and sooooooo cheap. I buy in large bulk and I'd say its around 50c a roll developing costs.

 

[drewbarb]

The whole push/pull bit is still a bit confusing to me. If you're shooting 3200 exposed for 3200 I should instruct the lab to push it 2.5 stops? I'm not yet developing my own film. 😱

Well, yes. Pushing and pulling film is always problematic when you aren't doing your own processing. It all depends upon how good your lab is. If they have a real understanding of how to handle film, they will ask you how you exposed your film and process it accordingly; expect to pay well for this service. At the other end of the spectrum, you have labs run with little regard for craft. They simply run all film by rote at their idea of "Normal", and may not even offer push/pull service. These places will typically blame all variations from perfect negatives as photographer error.

Communication is they key here. Talk to them, and see how they operate and what they recommend. Explain that you understand this film to be slower than the box speed indicates, but you exposed at 3200 anyway, and that you know it should be push processed. Hopefully they can handle it, and hopefully they won't treat you like an ignorant idiot. You never know. Either way, I'd always start out by bringing the lab an unimportant test roll to see how they do with it.

If they do look at you like you're an idiot, I would do one of two things: find another lab, or just tell them never mind- process it plus two stops, and see how it goes.

Finally, I will suggest that you consider learning to process your own film- it's easy, and doesn't require much investment in equipment. Yes, there is a learning curve, but once you learn how to get the film on the reel you are half way there. Good luck, and keep us posted.

 

[robbeiflex]

All very good advice above, some of which I should actually start following myself, particularly sticking to one film and one dev for a while. I find that I switch films too often when I could just use HP5 to cover ISO 200 to 1600.

One other thing to remember is that you can use an ND filter if you end up with ISO 800 or faster still in the camera the next day. A three stop filter makes 800 like shooting ISO 100 but it retains the grain of the fast film. If you like shooting wide open aperture during the day an ND filter helps too.

 

[CopperB]

Seriously buy one of the kits that include everything you need and shoot a few junk rolls to practise on, its very scary the first 2/3 times then its easy as pie and sooooooo cheap. I buy in large bulk and I'd say its around 50c a roll developing costs.

Thanks! That's a price I can live with.

 

[Paul Luscher]

Copper B: If I'm not finished with a roll of film in my camera and I want to change out, I do the following: Roll the film back and (with a Sharpie I ALWAYS carry) I note on the leader and the film canister the number of the last frame shot.

Next time I use that film- I advance the film (lens covered or off the camera, of course) TWO FRAMES beyond the last frame shot. This guarantees I won't overlap the last frame previously shot.

Got this idea from Popular Photographer magazine. Been using this system for years, and with one or two mishaps due to operator error, it's worked for me....

 

[drewbarb]

I'd like to echo the excellent advice about sticking to one film and one (or two...) developers for a while, until you really get to know them.

My (very unoriginal) take on this is to use Tri-X. It's a really versatile film. In the right soups, it will give excellent results at any EI from 200 to 1600. I do use two or three different developers, but these are used to make the results look similar across that range of speeds.

(In the interest of full disclosure, I don't stick to just one film at all these days- but I have done so for periods in the past- including with each of the five or six films I do shoot these days.)

Anyway, the point about shooting one film stock until you know it inside and out is an excellent idea for any photographer, and cannot be overstated.

 

[CopperB]

Thanks for all the great advice drew, sonofdanang & robeiflex. The lab will process as I instruct. Initally with my old M3, I was exposing 400 at 200 to try to up my exposure and they pulled it for me. For the most part, I've used either Artista Premium or II over my 1st year of shooting. I have tried the occassional roll of Ilford films and a bit of Fuji (film gifted to me). I've tried rounding up used equipment to start learning the development of my film but with limited luck. I'm sure I'm best to bite the bullet and buy a kit to start. A friend who owns the lab has actually shown me how to develop a roll of my own film in the lab. Winding the film onto the metal spool was fine until I had to do it blind. LOL

 

[CopperB]

Copper B: If I'm not finished with a roll of film in my camera and I want to change out, I do the following: Roll the film back and (with a Sharpie I ALWAYS carry) I note on the leader and the film canister the number of the last frame shot.

Next time I use that film- I advance the film (lens covered or off the camera, of course) TWO FRAMES beyond the last frame shot. This guarantees I won't overlap the last frame previously shot.

Got this idea from Popular Photographer magazine. Been using this system for years, and with one or two mishaps due to operator error, it's worked for me....

Wow! Who knew?! I've got a question for you. How do you avoid rewinding the tail of the film without opening the back of the camera?

 

[Mcary]

Wow! Who knew?! I've got a question for you. How do you avoid rewinding the tail of the film without opening the back of the camera?

If you hold the camera close to your ear as you're rewinding the film you should hear a small pop when the film lead pops off the take up spool.

 

[JayGannon]

Thanks for all the great advice drew, sonofdanang & robeiflex. The lab will process as I instruct. Initally with my old M3, I was exposing 400 at 200 to try to up my exposure and they pulled it for me. For the most part, I've used either Artista Premium or II over my 1st year of shooting. I have tried the occassional roll of Ilford films and a bit of Fuji (film gifted to me). I've tried rounding up used equipment to start learning the development of my film but with limited luck. I'm sure I'm best to bite the bullet and buy a kit to start. A friend who owns the lab has actually shown me how to develop a roll of my own film in the lab. Winding the film onto the metal spool was fine until I had to do it blind. LOL

Plastc spools are about a bazllion times easier. In my opinion anyway.

 

[drewbarb]

Shooting a partial roll, unloading, and finishing the roll later is a very useful thing to be able to do. It makes shooting a few exposures for testing a breeze (great to save film, too!). I unload film all the time when partway through a roll when I want or need to change film speeds or what have you. It's easy to rewind leaving the leader out with a manual rewind camera- just listen for the film to pop out of the take up spool. You will also feel the tension change in the rewind knob. Stop winding as soon as you feel an hear this happen, and open up the camera, and the leader should still be out.

 

[CopperB]

OK! I'll give it a try. Yikes!