J J Kapsberger
Well-known
I live in an apartment. I have an enlarger. A very good enlarger. I hope to have one day soon a functioning darkroom in either the washroom or the kitchen. Making use of those rooms will involve setting up and dismantling every printing session. Whenever I 'develop' images in PS, I routinely make use of the digital equivalent of techniques such as burning, dodging, split-tone processing, toning, retouching, etc. That is, when I develop an image, I get into it in a big way and I want to make high quality prints.
Should I struggle with setting up and dismantling my darkroom (rolling the enlarger in and out, setting up the trays, wiping spills off the linoleum, working with one sink, etc.), or should I get a high-end ink-jet printer? How much better still is traditional printing? Can an idiot like me become a master traditional printer with a makeshift set up in an apartment?
Should I struggle with setting up and dismantling my darkroom (rolling the enlarger in and out, setting up the trays, wiping spills off the linoleum, working with one sink, etc.), or should I get a high-end ink-jet printer? How much better still is traditional printing? Can an idiot like me become a master traditional printer with a makeshift set up in an apartment?
Graham Line
Well-known
Friend of mine with a tiny place put all the darkroom stuff into one of those kitchen carts with a work surface on top and shelves beneath. It gets wheeled into the bathroom as needed and everything stays more or less in one place. The cart locks into place when printing.
As nice as inkjets can be, it isn't the same as wet printing.
As nice as inkjets can be, it isn't the same as wet printing.
dazedgonebye
Veteran
I've seen some great work with inkjet printers. Most especially the type modified to use all inks for various shades of grey.
I know there's a consensus around here that there is no substitute for wet printing...I'm not so sure.
From what I read though, getting great results from an inkjet is a real skill to be learned...not that a wet darkroom is easy...it's just that you can't expect to go buy a nice printer and start sending files and get a result you will be happy with.
Find and talk with some people doing good inkets and look at the results. Only you can tell if you'll be able to satisfy yourself with inkjets.
I know there's a consensus around here that there is no substitute for wet printing...I'm not so sure.
From what I read though, getting great results from an inkjet is a real skill to be learned...not that a wet darkroom is easy...it's just that you can't expect to go buy a nice printer and start sending files and get a result you will be happy with.
Find and talk with some people doing good inkets and look at the results. Only you can tell if you'll be able to satisfy yourself with inkjets.
tbarker13
shooter of stuff
I've been using an Epson R2400, which does a very nice job with B&W printing. I won't say its better than traditional printing, but it's good.
Unless I ever find myself again with a spare room (with plumbing), I doubt I'll ever have a traditional darkroom again.
Unless I ever find myself again with a spare room (with plumbing), I doubt I'll ever have a traditional darkroom again.
sepiareverb
genius and moron
You are simply mad. I've had two darkrooms as you describe- with all the set-up breakdown woes. Granted, at that time ink-jet wasn't an option, but there is simply a depth and luminosity lacking in even the very best B&W ink-jet prints.
vdonovan
Vince Donovan
I work with computers for a living, so when it comes to photography the LAST thing I want is to be sitting at a screen fiddling with curves, adjustment layers, etc. I want a hands-on hobby, so I'm a wet printer. If I had a different profession where I wasn't sitting in front of a screen all day, I would probably use a digital printer.
I'm lucky, though. I have access to a first-class rental darkroom, the Rayko Photography Center in San Francisco. I call them up and let them know I'm coming. They set up the enlarger and the chemistry. I waltz in, do my printing, and waltz out. They clean up. I LOVE it.
I'm lucky, though. I have access to a first-class rental darkroom, the Rayko Photography Center in San Francisco. I call them up and let them know I'm coming. They set up the enlarger and the chemistry. I waltz in, do my printing, and waltz out. They clean up. I LOVE it.
BillBingham2
Registered User
That's a hard one. Take a look into a printer that takes continuos feed ink, there are several options, but do your work. Otherwise, IMHO, you will be paying through the nose for cartridges and such.
I miss the magic of watching the print develop, but time is sucked so dry right now I am not sure which way is up. I like the suggestion of a complete cart. Perhaps not for exposing the paper (shake in your enemy in printing as much as in capturing the image) but making it easy to set up is way cool. Perhaps take the enlarger off the top and use the top for the developer tray?
There are some great quality prints from good printers but it combines good ink, good paper and good knowledge of your software. Just like learning your paper, developer and enlarger.
Dig into printers, paper and ink, then your software. See if anyone near you will let you test and play (very hard to find).
B2 (;->
I miss the magic of watching the print develop, but time is sucked so dry right now I am not sure which way is up. I like the suggestion of a complete cart. Perhaps not for exposing the paper (shake in your enemy in printing as much as in capturing the image) but making it easy to set up is way cool. Perhaps take the enlarger off the top and use the top for the developer tray?
There are some great quality prints from good printers but it combines good ink, good paper and good knowledge of your software. Just like learning your paper, developer and enlarger.
Dig into printers, paper and ink, then your software. See if anyone near you will let you test and play (very hard to find).
B2 (;->
Rayt
Nonplayer Character
Same here. I bought the R2400 for b/w and it is easy to use and the output is great. I have about 10 years of experience in the wet room and perhaps my computer skills are not up to it but traditional prints have better tonality. Inkjet prints are just different.
Rayt
Nonplayer Character
I was a regular at the Harvey Milk photo center and the people and the service are great. I am sure their enlargers are not first rate but good enough.
35mmdelux
Veni, vidi, vici
many of today's great photogs have gone to high-end ink jet printing. Can you master it in you apartment? Absolutely, yes. Is it better than traditional printing. Not really.
Ink jet printing is quick and easy. If there is something you especially like or want to last over many years, then use traditional printing methods.
Ink jet printing is quick and easy. If there is something you especially like or want to last over many years, then use traditional printing methods.
tbarker13
shooter of stuff
If you do decide to look at higher end printers, check out quadtone RIP, a shareware program that costs $50. I've been using it for B&W printing on my 2400 and it works quite well.
I'd love to go with an all black inkset, but because of a recent push by Epson, ink makers are more limited in which pre-filled cartridges they can sell. The all-black inksets I've found only come in Continuous Ink Systems or bottles (and I don't have the refillable carts) I don't think I print enough to go with a CIS - I've read a lot about maintenance issues if you don't keep them pretty active.
I just put in an order for some UT3D inks, which I've heard good things about. As an added bonus, the cartridges are $9 cheaper than Epson K3 inks.
I'd love to go with an all black inkset, but because of a recent push by Epson, ink makers are more limited in which pre-filled cartridges they can sell. The all-black inksets I've found only come in Continuous Ink Systems or bottles (and I don't have the refillable carts) I don't think I print enough to go with a CIS - I've read a lot about maintenance issues if you don't keep them pretty active.
I just put in an order for some UT3D inks, which I've heard good things about. As an added bonus, the cartridges are $9 cheaper than Epson K3 inks.
Tuolumne
Veteran
Unless you are an artist, serious exhibitor, or total perfectionist, you will never notice the difference after switching to a high-end ink jet. Actually - you will notice a difference - the ink jet makes far better prints than a dark room ever could for the average user. I have an Epson R-1800. I can do infinitely more with it than I ever could in a wet dark room. The flexibility and ease of use with a digital dark room so far out paces what the average wet dark room printer can do as to make the latter truly obsolete.
/T
/T
sepiareverb
genius and moron
Thanks for clearing this up for all of us who print silver. :bang:
They are different. From the hands of someone who cares enough to learn to print well the silver print is a remarkably beautiful object, with a depth and luminosity that a B&W ink-jet print can't touch. For the average user, who can't tell the difference between a silver print and an ink-jet why worry. Color is a different story, for since the demise of fiber based color paper there ink-jet certainly has an advantage, in longevity and with careful work, beauty.
The other side is the joy of printing, something many find completely lacking in the digital darkroom. But I guess pleasure doesn't enter into things so cut and dry
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mfogiel
Veteran
The proof is in the pudding
The proof is in the pudding
I think, only you can decide what is your satisfactory output. I'd say, take a good, sharp, tonally good negative, scan it and make all the adjustments, then go to a pro lab or look for a friend who can print it for you on an Epson 2400, 3800 or better on Ilford Gallerie Gold Fiber Silk paper in advanced B&W mode, or through a RIP.
Specify the toning too. Then make a print of the same negative at the same size in your darkroom and compare the outcome.
If you'll send me a jpeg, I can make the inkjet print for you, make sure the resolution is at least 360ppi for the size you want.
For me, the wet print has a slight edge in better visual depth, but the inkjets are catching up, and they win already in Dmax and sharpness, I would no longer want to sit in a darkroom for a tiny improvement which could wither away in a few months.
The proof is in the pudding
I think, only you can decide what is your satisfactory output. I'd say, take a good, sharp, tonally good negative, scan it and make all the adjustments, then go to a pro lab or look for a friend who can print it for you on an Epson 2400, 3800 or better on Ilford Gallerie Gold Fiber Silk paper in advanced B&W mode, or through a RIP.
Specify the toning too. Then make a print of the same negative at the same size in your darkroom and compare the outcome.
If you'll send me a jpeg, I can make the inkjet print for you, make sure the resolution is at least 360ppi for the size you want.
For me, the wet print has a slight edge in better visual depth, but the inkjets are catching up, and they win already in Dmax and sharpness, I would no longer want to sit in a darkroom for a tiny improvement which could wither away in a few months.
dazedgonebye
Veteran
Wow...you're getting better results from your R1800 than I am from mine.
I think it might do for most color work, but I've never been happy with the black and white...never...not even one image.
J J Kapsberger
Well-known
That's exactly the scenario I'd envisioned. Both paths begin with a learning curve. With the inconvenience of my set up, such as it would be, it might make sense to go digital, achieve 98% of what I could via the wet process (after throwing away lots of paper and wiping indicator stop bath of the floor and counter [and scouring away the purple stains]), and be as satisfied with those prints as I am with music CDs (even though apparently they're inferior to analogue recordings).
sepiareverb
genius and moron
amateriat
We're all light!
I love the wet darkroom, and don't regard the inkjet as a de-facto replacement. However, I've never had the proper space for the proper sort of darkroom for making the kind of prints that stand out compared to almost any other process. Presently, I can't even do the kit-on-a-cart arrangement properly. A high-end inkjet printer, coupled with attention to technique (which, BTW, starts with the film scan itself, a subject worth a bunch of threads here on its own), can yield prints that need not be apologized for. Different from the best wet prints, certainly. But "inferior?" I'd say not.
For me, HP's 8750 (recently discontinued, I believe) has been the ticket for the past three years, giving me dead-neutral b/w prints as well as excellent color, with a lack of many of the artifacts too many people take for granted in certain inkjet prints, in particular gloss differential and bronzing on glossy- or satin-finish paper (still something of an issue with certain Epson printers with standard inks, and a few other HP printers as well). And the prints can be exhibited without fear...I'll be putting my money where my mouth is on this matter in a few months.
- Barrett
For me, HP's 8750 (recently discontinued, I believe) has been the ticket for the past three years, giving me dead-neutral b/w prints as well as excellent color, with a lack of many of the artifacts too many people take for granted in certain inkjet prints, in particular gloss differential and bronzing on glossy- or satin-finish paper (still something of an issue with certain Epson printers with standard inks, and a few other HP printers as well). And the prints can be exhibited without fear...I'll be putting my money where my mouth is on this matter in a few months.
- Barrett
J J Kapsberger
Well-known
Exactly the scenario I'd like to avoid.
Tuolumne
Veteran
Thanks for clearing this up for all of us who print silver. :bang:
They are different. From the hands of someone who cares enough to learn to print well the silver print is a remarkably beautiful object, with a depth and luminosity that a B&W ink-jet print can't touch. For the average user, who can't tell the difference between a silver print and an ink-jet why worry. Color is a different story, for since the demise of fiber based color paper there ink-jet certainly has an advantage, in longevity and with careful work, beauty.
The other side is the joy of printing, something many find completely lacking in the digital darkroom. But I guess pleasure doesn't enter into things so cut and dry
There is no great pleasure in wet printing for me. I tried it once for a year. Never did it again. After that year I only shot slides. Now I can print anything I want at home with far superior results, color or B&W. I don't print much B&W so I haven't really perfected that technique. I'm sure if I cared enough I could get just as good results in B&W as I now get in color on my home ink jet.
/T