theory
Left-eyed
Hello,
I've been enjoying my Kiev 4 for a few months now. However, since I first got it, I've been experiencing a shutter issue when I shoot at 1/1250. It looks like the shutter doesn't open all the way. I was wondering if anybody experienced a similar issue?
On the plus side, my 1/1250 setting serves as a ghetto panoramic mode
I also have a sample pic for those interested (shot with Efke KB100).
I've been enjoying my Kiev 4 for a few months now. However, since I first got it, I've been experiencing a shutter issue when I shoot at 1/1250. It looks like the shutter doesn't open all the way. I was wondering if anybody experienced a similar issue?
On the plus side, my 1/1250 setting serves as a ghetto panoramic mode
I also have a sample pic for those interested (shot with Efke KB100).
Nickfed
Well-known
I think there is something else going on. I don't know what, but if that really was just the shutter, I would expect a clearly defined straight line. Not super sharp, but nonetheless straight.
Do you really need to shoot 1/1250? There is no evidence in the picture that you do, so I wouldn't let it spoil your enjoyment.
Do you really need to shoot 1/1250? There is no evidence in the picture that you do, so I wouldn't let it spoil your enjoyment.
ErnestoJL
Well-known
First question: does it happen in other shutter speeds?
If yes, there should be something inside the camera producing a shadow.
Why a shadow?
Shutter failure produces as Nickfed said a straight line not too out of focus. Your picture show a curved line and it isn´t sharp.
If this problem can oly be seen in that speed, there should be probably a shutter problem.
If the shutter is having some troubles, the most common "documented" trouble is capping: it is the curtains do not open at all at certain speeds, usually the highest of them, say 1/500 or 1/1250 (which also isn´t true as most Kievs yield something between 1/700 to 1/1000). This problem was also found in pre war Contaxes on which the Kiev was based (in fact is a german designed camera, made in Ukraine with the original ZI tooling).
As the shutter produces a varying slit of different width at speeds higher that 1/60, then a small wear or misadjustment in some parts may lead to capping.
My suggestion: shoot one roll one half at 1/500 and the rest at 1/1250 and check if the problem shows itself in all the negatives, or just those shoot at the higher speed.
If yes, there should be something inside the camera producing a shadow.
Why a shadow?
Shutter failure produces as Nickfed said a straight line not too out of focus. Your picture show a curved line and it isn´t sharp.
If this problem can oly be seen in that speed, there should be probably a shutter problem.
If the shutter is having some troubles, the most common "documented" trouble is capping: it is the curtains do not open at all at certain speeds, usually the highest of them, say 1/500 or 1/1250 (which also isn´t true as most Kievs yield something between 1/700 to 1/1000). This problem was also found in pre war Contaxes on which the Kiev was based (in fact is a german designed camera, made in Ukraine with the original ZI tooling).
As the shutter produces a varying slit of different width at speeds higher that 1/60, then a small wear or misadjustment in some parts may lead to capping.
My suggestion: shoot one roll one half at 1/500 and the rest at 1/1250 and check if the problem shows itself in all the negatives, or just those shoot at the higher speed.
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
Well, let's see (excuse me while I think out loud)...
...The dark area is at the top of the picture, but since a lens forms an inverted image, whatever is happening is happening at the bottom of the film gate.
...A Contax or Kiev shutter runs top to bottom.
...So, it looks to me like what's happening is that your shutter's opening curtain is sluggish; it isn't getting all the way clear of the film gate before the closing curtain catches up to it and terminates the exposure. The edge of the dark area isn't sharp because the opening curtain is still moving as the closing curtain catches up to it; in effect, the shutter slit is getting narrower and narrower until it's extinguished entirely, producing a "gradated" edge to the unexposed area.
...Now, why would it do that? I read the Contax II shutter section on Henry Scherer's website, since a Kiev shutter and a Contax II shutter are very similar in design. The information on that site suggests several possibilities, such as that the spring that drives the lower curtain roller has either broken or has lost some of its tension as a result of old age. If that's the case, the shutter would need to be cleaned and readjusted to get it operating corrrectly.
That's probably NOT what you wanted to hear, so keep in mind that I am no Contax expert (used to own a couple and poked around inside them a bit, but that's all) let alone a Kiev expert, and that I'm really just taking wild guesses here about the possible causes.
Have you tried firing the camera without film while watching the shutter from behind? If you concentrate, and put a well-lit sheet of white paper in front of the lens opening, you often can SEE roughly what the shutter is doing, even when it's firing at high speeds.
PS -- I think the dark area looks curved because the edge of the shutter curtain has some catches mounted on it -- in the center, where your image shows a bump, and at the edges -- and the blurred image of these catches produces an uneven outline. But the other people who suspect something loose inside the camera certainly have a point, and at least that's easy to check just by eyeballing it.
...The dark area is at the top of the picture, but since a lens forms an inverted image, whatever is happening is happening at the bottom of the film gate.
...A Contax or Kiev shutter runs top to bottom.
...So, it looks to me like what's happening is that your shutter's opening curtain is sluggish; it isn't getting all the way clear of the film gate before the closing curtain catches up to it and terminates the exposure. The edge of the dark area isn't sharp because the opening curtain is still moving as the closing curtain catches up to it; in effect, the shutter slit is getting narrower and narrower until it's extinguished entirely, producing a "gradated" edge to the unexposed area.
...Now, why would it do that? I read the Contax II shutter section on Henry Scherer's website, since a Kiev shutter and a Contax II shutter are very similar in design. The information on that site suggests several possibilities, such as that the spring that drives the lower curtain roller has either broken or has lost some of its tension as a result of old age. If that's the case, the shutter would need to be cleaned and readjusted to get it operating corrrectly.
That's probably NOT what you wanted to hear, so keep in mind that I am no Contax expert (used to own a couple and poked around inside them a bit, but that's all) let alone a Kiev expert, and that I'm really just taking wild guesses here about the possible causes.
Have you tried firing the camera without film while watching the shutter from behind? If you concentrate, and put a well-lit sheet of white paper in front of the lens opening, you often can SEE roughly what the shutter is doing, even when it's firing at high speeds.
PS -- I think the dark area looks curved because the edge of the shutter curtain has some catches mounted on it -- in the center, where your image shows a bump, and at the edges -- and the blurred image of these catches produces an uneven outline. But the other people who suspect something loose inside the camera certainly have a point, and at least that's easy to check just by eyeballing it.
Last edited:
theory
Left-eyed
Thanks for the info everybody,
Yes the problem is consisitent for the past three months whenever I choose 500 or 1250 I get this shadowing (500 isn't as noticeable usually).
I also just tried jlw's test of holding the camera to a light (ingenious, I must say) and the bottom curtain is in fact sluggish.
For some odd reason I like the problem because it makes my camera feel Holga-ish, but at the same time, I worry that my Kiev's shutter may start coughing blood at some point (that, and I have trouble confiding in this camera for quick "grab shots")
Yes the problem is consisitent for the past three months whenever I choose 500 or 1250 I get this shadowing (500 isn't as noticeable usually).
I also just tried jlw's test of holding the camera to a light (ingenious, I must say) and the bottom curtain is in fact sluggish.
For some odd reason I like the problem because it makes my camera feel Holga-ish, but at the same time, I worry that my Kiev's shutter may start coughing blood at some point (that, and I have trouble confiding in this camera for quick "grab shots")
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
Again referring to material found on Henry Scherer's website, the Contax II-type shutter (used in Kievs) has two escapements: a slow-speed one that covers the speeds up to 1/50, and a medium-speed one that covers the speeds 1/125 and 1/250.
The top two speeds, 1/500 and 1/1250, do NOT work through an escapement and are selected ONLY by changing the shutter slit width.
You might think that the shutter spring tension would be set higher for the highest shutter speeds, and in fact that's the way most shutters do work. However, in the Contax-type shutter, it's the lower speeds that have a higher spring tension, because they need to push the escapements out of the way. For the two highest speeds, the shutter operates at a lower spring tension, with nothing but friction to hold it back.
What this means to you is that you probably won't experience this problem at speeds lower than 1/500, because the shutter cranks up the spring tension at lower speeds and relies on the escapement to control the curtain timing. It's only at 1/500 and 1/1250, where the shutter tension is reduced, that your camera is not developing enough power to move the bottom curtain out of the way of the top curtain.
In other words, you probably can keep using the camera this way for a long time with no problems at the slower speeds, as long as you remember that the top two speeds are less likely to be reliable.
Many people enjoy this kind of "gambling" (and not just in using classic cameras -- one of the reasons that I enjoy my 1970s-era sports car is that it's just undependable enough to make driving a slight adventure!) so as long as you're willing to maintain a light-hearted attitude about it, there's no reason not to keep enjoying your Kiev exactly as it is, until the day comes when you decide you want to treat it to a full overhaul.
The top two speeds, 1/500 and 1/1250, do NOT work through an escapement and are selected ONLY by changing the shutter slit width.
You might think that the shutter spring tension would be set higher for the highest shutter speeds, and in fact that's the way most shutters do work. However, in the Contax-type shutter, it's the lower speeds that have a higher spring tension, because they need to push the escapements out of the way. For the two highest speeds, the shutter operates at a lower spring tension, with nothing but friction to hold it back.
What this means to you is that you probably won't experience this problem at speeds lower than 1/500, because the shutter cranks up the spring tension at lower speeds and relies on the escapement to control the curtain timing. It's only at 1/500 and 1/1250, where the shutter tension is reduced, that your camera is not developing enough power to move the bottom curtain out of the way of the top curtain.
In other words, you probably can keep using the camera this way for a long time with no problems at the slower speeds, as long as you remember that the top two speeds are less likely to be reliable.
Many people enjoy this kind of "gambling" (and not just in using classic cameras -- one of the reasons that I enjoy my 1970s-era sports car is that it's just undependable enough to make driving a slight adventure!) so as long as you're willing to maintain a light-hearted attitude about it, there's no reason not to keep enjoying your Kiev exactly as it is, until the day comes when you decide you want to treat it to a full overhaul.
RJBender
RFF Sponsoring Member
shutter speed testers
shutter speed testers
I thought it would be a good idea to test the speeds in my Kievs and see of they were close. Obviously, if I'm getting 1/80th of a second at the 1/125th setting I'd want to use a higher shutter speed or put the camera on a tripod. Camera repair shops typically charge $15-20 per camera to do this while you wait.
I found plans for 3 simple shutter speed testers on the internet:
This one uses a photoresistor:
http://www.nikonhs.org/tech_articles/stester.html
This one uses a phototransistor:
http://www.open.hr/~dpleic/photo/Shutter.html
This one uses 2 phototransistors. The author says, The phototransistors don’t switch "on and off" instantly which makes it more difficult to check the faster speeds.
http://www.kyphoto.com/classics/combinationtester.html
This one doesn't need a computer but it's $225.
http://www.homestead.com/cameratester/
Ernesto, do you think the tester with the photoresistor might be more accurate than the testers with the phototransitors?
R.J.
shutter speed testers
I thought it would be a good idea to test the speeds in my Kievs and see of they were close. Obviously, if I'm getting 1/80th of a second at the 1/125th setting I'd want to use a higher shutter speed or put the camera on a tripod. Camera repair shops typically charge $15-20 per camera to do this while you wait.
I found plans for 3 simple shutter speed testers on the internet:
This one uses a photoresistor:
http://www.nikonhs.org/tech_articles/stester.html
This one uses a phototransistor:
http://www.open.hr/~dpleic/photo/Shutter.html
This one uses 2 phototransistors. The author says, The phototransistors don’t switch "on and off" instantly which makes it more difficult to check the faster speeds.
http://www.kyphoto.com/classics/combinationtester.html
This one doesn't need a computer but it's $225.
http://www.homestead.com/cameratester/
Ernesto, do you think the tester with the photoresistor might be more accurate than the testers with the phototransitors?
R.J.
ErnestoJL
Well-known
Well, according to what I´ve learned, a photoresistor may be slow in reaction time for frequencies higher that 1 Khz, what makes usually difficult to obtain a definite "on" signal, or an "off" signal raising the error in the measurement.Iinstad of being step, it wouold resemble a curved slope waveform.
A phototransistor should bring more accurate measurements unless the circuit itself is of low inherent accuracy.
First problem arises when there is a focal plane or leaf type shutter, as long as the latter has to be fully open for the exposure and the focal plane type is a fast moving slit across the frame, then the shuter speed should be measured in different ways.
The focal plane shutter exposes part of the negative in a sequence that brings the full frame exposed in the travelling time of the curtains.
Then every sector is exposed a t a time, with the curtains travelling very fast (opening time and closing time should be nil in any focal plane shutter).
The combination of curtain speed and slit width brings the equivalent of the declared time. Then your sensor should be as small as possible, in fact smaller than the smaller moving slit to avoid a serious lack of accuracy. A photoresistor may be as small as 5 mm, and this should be smaller than the smaller slit the shutter would produce.
Any way, these methods, even being not too accurate are very good for amateurs, because they are really cheap and simple. The unit of $225 is surely better, however... too expensive!!
Best regards
Ernesto
A phototransistor should bring more accurate measurements unless the circuit itself is of low inherent accuracy.
First problem arises when there is a focal plane or leaf type shutter, as long as the latter has to be fully open for the exposure and the focal plane type is a fast moving slit across the frame, then the shuter speed should be measured in different ways.
The focal plane shutter exposes part of the negative in a sequence that brings the full frame exposed in the travelling time of the curtains.
Then every sector is exposed a t a time, with the curtains travelling very fast (opening time and closing time should be nil in any focal plane shutter).
The combination of curtain speed and slit width brings the equivalent of the declared time. Then your sensor should be as small as possible, in fact smaller than the smaller moving slit to avoid a serious lack of accuracy. A photoresistor may be as small as 5 mm, and this should be smaller than the smaller slit the shutter would produce.
Any way, these methods, even being not too accurate are very good for amateurs, because they are really cheap and simple. The unit of $225 is surely better, however... too expensive!!
Best regards
Ernesto