Shutter Ribbons Broken Problem in Kiev 4

[optikhit]

One of my Kiev 4 camera's shutter ribbons were broken twice and another one was broken days ago. The repairman tell me don't force to rewind with much strength. I remember the last one I was very careful when rewinding the shutter. Is there any other mal-manipulation should provended? Have you had such experience? Thanks.

 

[Pherdinand]

:O the REwinding has nothing to do with the shutter ribbons, as far as I understand its working.
(I repaired a broken ribbon already so i dare to say I know a bit about it.)
Maybe you just mean cocking the shutter (winding the film)?

If it breaks often, there should be a mechanical problem, something must be in the way that wears the ribbons too badly. Maybe the little slits that slide on the ribbons are damaged? Maybe the first ribbon replacement action was a screwup and the ribbon is not threaded through the shutter slits as it should?

My Kiev from 1960 had ONE of the ribbons broken after 40 years. The other one still looks good - dirty, oily but intact. They should hold up for long.

 

[varjag]

As Pherdinand says, getting ribbons worn that quickly is not normal. They should last for years, and winding/rewinding shouldn't affect this.

Aside from mechanical malfunction, the other cause could be that replacement ribbons are of incorrect weave, material or dimensions. Original Kiev ribbons were made from very specific type of nylon band. Any random replacement would likely be not wear-resistant enough. Some sellers on the net offer apropriate repair material for the system, including original ribbon material.

 

[Xmas]

Optikhit

Eugene is correct a well used camera should stay in service a long time.

The Contax ribbon is real silk the Kiev synthetic material but both are good for hard use. They can break where they are sewn in at the ends or wear from the friction clutches, or through being left on shelf and not used for a decade. I've cameras on origonal manufactures ribbon, from late '70 - shelf Queens with previous owners, just waiting for the snap.

The only think you can do is not store the camera with the shutter cocked, as this wont help the drive spring.

You need to be practical to do your own ribbon replacement - difficult.

Noel

 

[Pherdinand]

The shutter in the Kiev is made in such a way that even an uncocked shutter is under tension. Not that much as a cocked one but i'm not sure the difference matters at all.
The tension in the springs and ribbons is only released when the ribbons are broken.

 

[Xmas]

The shutter in the Kiev is made in such a way that even an uncocked shutter is under tension. Not that much as a cocked one but i'm not sure the difference matters at all.
The tension in the springs and ribbons is only released when the ribbons are broken.

According the Henry Scherer the Contax manitenance man the driving spring does not need to be set at all times, it develops a memory.

Optikhit's maintenance man does not seem to understand that winding the camera is less stressful then firing the shutter - on the ribbons. I.e. there is more stress when the sutter fires. There is movement of the ribbom through the shutter clutches when the shutter is cocked but that is just wear and tear not the acceleration load of firing. Though I have had ribbons snap when winding.

Noel

 

[Pherdinand]

I don't fully understand what you mean by that, or what the COntax maintenance man means, but I know that the shutter is always tensioned.
When one replaces the ribbon(s), e.g., he is supposed to turn the bottom drum's setscrew about 15 full turns to tension the springs. The shutter will be cocked after this.

 

[Xmas]

Henry's submission seems to be that the spring is not built to withstand the tension and if you have a Contax - the parts bodies are in short supply when you need to replace a damaged spring.

This could also apply to earlier Kievs if the Ru have made changes thought production.

It wont do it harm leaving it uncocked?

I did not know it was 15 turns I thought you either had to count when you disconnected the locking device or set the tension up from scratch with a speed meter. The speed is dependent upon the friction and some people may increase the tension rather then clean the bushes, so there may be more tension then it was designed for.

Noel

 

[Pherdinand]

Indeed it is not the most precise method to count fifteen turns but it seems to work well. The ideal would be to speed-o-meter it.

 

[Branestawm]

I'm curious about the reference to fifteen turns on the spring adjuster. A quick look at Sherer's website gives nine turns as an absolute maximum before there is a risk of damage to the spring. I know that ultimately the setting will be governed by the shutter calibration but there's a Kiev awaiting a service and a basic setting would be useful.

Paul

 

[Xmas]

Paul

Please ignore the infighting.

The best reference is the Kiev survivial site by Russ Pinchbeck. Henry is picky and fussy but rebuilds lots of Contax.

Russ says count the number of turns as you release the lock on the tensioner, he also says dont let the other spool shaft slip out...

If you do do a rebuild I'd think about one of the speed testers you can build yourself, as well as lots of zippo brushed on to the shutter bushings, carefully a little at a time, and a little (a trace) of your finest lube afterwards. If you can get the rebuild shutter to 1/800 at seven turns I'd leave it, one does not want to question Henry when he is being cautious...

Good luck as well

Noel

 

[Branestawm]

I'm inclined to agree with you, Noel. I rarely shoot slide and the lattitude in print film would allow for some error in shutter speeds. If need be I would rather live with a slightly slow shutter than risk damaging anything.

 

[Pherdinand]

I'm curious about the reference to fifteen turns on the spring adjuster. A quick look at Sherer's website gives nine turns as an absolute maximum before there is a risk of damage to the spring. I know that ultimately the setting will be governed by the shutter calibration but there's a Kiev awaiting a service and a basic setting would be useful.

Paul

I think i took the idea originally from Rick Oleson's website, or it could be the Kiev survival site. I noticed that it corresponds to about correct speeds on my Kiev as well.

Contaxes might be a bit different, I don't know.

I did this to my Kiev a year ago or such, and it still goes strong, so, that's what I can say.

 

[Xmas]

Guys

I did not mean to be proscriptive, and I hope it did not read so.

If you have stripped your shutter and released the tension I'd recommend you Zippoed all the bearings that move when the shutter is fired, and apply one drop of the best light lube you have, to each.

Then you have a choice to make, the tension on the shutter controls the slow speeds and the fast speeds, in a different manner, it also seems to control the noise and the vibration, (a slap effect). If you have a speed tester you can assemble to optimise all these to your taste, noting that it will be quieter when the shutter chassis is in camera & in a case, & the vibration similar.

My personal choice is for low noise, low slap, and I dont mind if the fast speeds are really slow, especially if I know how slow.

Alas I have three bodies with snapped ribbons and a queue of other (camera repair) jobs ahead in the queue, i.e. already in pieces in all my developing trays. I think I will have to make the speed tester first...

The answer to the next question is I develop B&W prints in colour drum(s) ...

Noel

 

[Pherdinand]

What in fact was the biggest pain, was re-tensioning the shutter after the ribbon installation. There was a serious need for patience keeping the tension on the small screw.

 

[optikhit]

Thanks a lot, Guys. I learn a lot from your suggestions.
The problem seems not difficult for the repaireman. However I am still afraid of encountering any sudden resistence during winding and cocking the camera.