CK Dexter Haven
Well-known
"I think Sigma's problem is more in the ad department then with their cameras, which are pretty competent."
I think their ad department is doing a fantastic job. They've got a lot of very serious photographers discussing a P&S camera made (not by Leica, Contax, Canon or Nikon, but) by SIGMA. That's just good work. The fault doesn't lie in overhype — it's in the expectations of consumers. This camera is and always has been a 16mm f4 APS-sensor camera. Whether or not that is significantly better than all the other P&S digitals has nothing to do with declarations made on ad pages. It is what it is. If we've believed this camera could be a replacement for a Leica 28mm-ASPH, the fault is ours.
I'm impressed by the sigma site samples, at 100 and 400. But, being 'impressed' is not a comparison to what i believe my 5D can do at similar settings. 'Impressed' is relative to the other available cameras and my expectations for what they can deliver, AND versus the results i see versus P&S film cameras at similar REALISTIC print sizes. I'm sure everyone here downloaded those samples, and inspected them at 100%. How many of us did the same thing with Contax T3 or Leica Minilux/CM prints? Magnifying glasses out?
Keep it in perspective. I'd love to see more DOF control. That's the primary reason i'm not seriously considering this camera. But, having seen the initial specs when the camera was first announced, i've never had unrealistic expectations in that area. It is what it is. Just because it isn't yet the camera of our dreams doesn't mean it can't be a successful product at this point in 'digital history.' In two years, someone will have a full-frame, 35mm f2 camera, with ISO 3200, and we'll all be happy, until someone else shows prototypes of a 35mm f1.4 camera using Integrated MagicView Aperture Interpolation. That's the way technology works. We either have to get used to that, or forever remain disappointed with what we bought two weeks ago.
I think their ad department is doing a fantastic job. They've got a lot of very serious photographers discussing a P&S camera made (not by Leica, Contax, Canon or Nikon, but) by SIGMA. That's just good work. The fault doesn't lie in overhype — it's in the expectations of consumers. This camera is and always has been a 16mm f4 APS-sensor camera. Whether or not that is significantly better than all the other P&S digitals has nothing to do with declarations made on ad pages. It is what it is. If we've believed this camera could be a replacement for a Leica 28mm-ASPH, the fault is ours.
I'm impressed by the sigma site samples, at 100 and 400. But, being 'impressed' is not a comparison to what i believe my 5D can do at similar settings. 'Impressed' is relative to the other available cameras and my expectations for what they can deliver, AND versus the results i see versus P&S film cameras at similar REALISTIC print sizes. I'm sure everyone here downloaded those samples, and inspected them at 100%. How many of us did the same thing with Contax T3 or Leica Minilux/CM prints? Magnifying glasses out?
Keep it in perspective. I'd love to see more DOF control. That's the primary reason i'm not seriously considering this camera. But, having seen the initial specs when the camera was first announced, i've never had unrealistic expectations in that area. It is what it is. Just because it isn't yet the camera of our dreams doesn't mean it can't be a successful product at this point in 'digital history.' In two years, someone will have a full-frame, 35mm f2 camera, with ISO 3200, and we'll all be happy, until someone else shows prototypes of a 35mm f1.4 camera using Integrated MagicView Aperture Interpolation. That's the way technology works. We either have to get used to that, or forever remain disappointed with what we bought two weeks ago.
Dante_Stella
Rex canum cattorumque
Half of one, six dozen of the other
Half of one, six dozen of the other
One thing that would be apparent to people who have used the GR Digital II and the Lumix LX-2 (D-Lux 3) is that by f/8 - the favorite aperture in the informal testing - both the Ricoh and the Panasonic are diffracting. The Ricoh seems to max out in resolution at f/2.8 and the Panasonic at f/4.
Half of one, six dozen of the other
One thing that would be apparent to people who have used the GR Digital II and the Lumix LX-2 (D-Lux 3) is that by f/8 - the favorite aperture in the informal testing - both the Ricoh and the Panasonic are diffracting. The Ricoh seems to max out in resolution at f/2.8 and the Panasonic at f/4.
Tuolumne
Veteran
"There are currently only two major advantages that dSLR cameras have that film cameras do not - besides immediacy."
This is like saying there are only two advantages a car has over a horse, besides the fact it can go 15x faster for 1000x longer!
/T
This is like saying there are only two advantages a car has over a horse, besides the fact it can go 15x faster for 1000x longer!
/T
Terao
Kiloran
Its a camera of compromises, as are all cameras. Whether its any good will depend on whether you can accept those compromises or not. For me I still need to see one in the flesh before I decide whether to buy because pocketability is important to me - the reason why I put up with the GR-D's many foibles, and why I still carry its film ancestor a fair bit. I have better cameras to use when portability isn't an issue so my decision about the DP1 is entirely based on whether it can be a carry-everywhere cam.
Still love the concept though, and applaud Sigma for building it. If they built a range of them (35, 50, 75) I can see myself having one of each and my rangefinder film gear ending up on the classifieds.
Rather like the D3 this camera is revolutionary and I hope it will create enough ripples in the megapixel pond to encourage Canon/Nikon/Ricoh do to something other than shoehorn more pixies on to that little silicon wafer that passes for film these days.
Still love the concept though, and applaud Sigma for building it. If they built a range of them (35, 50, 75) I can see myself having one of each and my rangefinder film gear ending up on the classifieds.
Rather like the D3 this camera is revolutionary and I hope it will create enough ripples in the megapixel pond to encourage Canon/Nikon/Ricoh do to something other than shoehorn more pixies on to that little silicon wafer that passes for film these days.
Terao
Kiloran
Agreed re the coming photography platform. It won't be too long before we have an instant-response ISO10,000 10mp cameraphone. Given that so many (young) people use their digital P&S for social photography (by which I mean endless shots of drunken mates in bars/clubs) that will be as revolutionary as the arrival of 35mm in the 30s. The digital P&S market will be under pressure to innovate because the camera manufacturers won't want to be losing market share to Nokia, Sony (well, I guess they don't care), Motorola, etc. If I'm 18yo and going out clubbing why would I want to carry a cellphone and a camera? Wouldn't I rather have a cellphone that can grab a shot of that really hot chick at the other end of the bar rather than carry a bigger P&S that ruins the lines of my expensive designer jeans?
bmattock
Veteran
Tuolumne said:
Fine, but that wasn't my point. The two things I mentioned, setting WB and ISO on the fly, are not revolutionary - they can be achieved with a film camera, but only by changing film or filtration. I went on to talk about some things on the horizon that will give digital capture advantages that film never had and could never have, such as refocus-after-shooting, lens emulation in software, high-and-low sensitivity on the same image, and so on. Digital is a step forward, but at this point in time, there are also tradeoffs - you get some, you lose some. In time, it will be all upside.
keithwms
Established
Trius said:
It is interesting to speculate. I will start a separate thread later, after I get a chance to write up my prophecy in compact and intelligible form!
DougK
This space left blank
Hmmm. I read the specs and it's like Sigma had me and my typical shooting scenario in mind when they designed the DP1. I'd like to reserve judgment on the camera until I can see actual prints at my local camera shop, but I'm satisifed with what I see so far. I might have to start selling off some gear...
CK Dexter Haven
Well-known
"And while we're at it, why is the focal plane shutter sacred? I'd just as soon have leaf shutters. An in-body leaf shutter system"
Don't leaf shutters have very firm limits as to top shutter speed? Most top out at 1/500, i think, athough i may have heard of one spec'd at 1/750.....
Don't leaf shutters have very firm limits as to top shutter speed? Most top out at 1/500, i think, athough i may have heard of one spec'd at 1/750.....
Bryce
Well-known
Aren't all shutters obsolete?
The DP1 doesn't need one, why do slr and rangefinder based digital cameras?
The DP1 doesn't need one, why do slr and rangefinder based digital cameras?
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
I believe you are correct. I have never seen one faster than 1/500, though I bet with some r&d 1/1000 could be achieved, especially with a smaller sensor as the recording medium.CK Dexter Haven said: