silly question, but does your tank matter?

[kipkeston]

This may sound really silly, but I thought I would ask. As far as I know, your dev technique depends on time, temperature and agitation. I've been wondering if maybe different tanks have different affects on agitation. Has anyone had such experience? Am I going to regret making this thread in the morning?

 

[rxmd]

This may sound really silly, but I thought I would ask. As far as I know, your dev technique depends on time, temperature and agitation. I've been wondering if maybe different tanks have different affects on agitation. Has anyone had such experience? Am I going to regret making this thread in the morning?

I find tanks matter a lot. A T-34 beats the good old Sherman M-4 any day. 🙂

More seriously, I have experience with Jobo and Paterson tanks and find it doesn't make much of a difference agitation-wise. There *may* be a difference between tanks with a pipe in the middle and those that don't have one, but I doubt it matters in practice. There are other differences between tanks that do matter, for example how watertight they are or whether or not you can put them on an Ilford roller, but this is another question.

Philipp

 

[itf]

Steel vs plastic reels can have an effect, maybe the plastic tube down the middle of plastic tanks (not there on steel) makes a difference in flow, though probably slight. I've never used a steels tank, but plastic would seem to insulate better and so possibly hold a more constant temperature (if the liquid temp is altered from the ambient. Thermal flow?? Do steel tanks effect XTOL or does the treatment of the steel prevent that (can't remember the word)?

 

[Roger Hicks]

No, it doesn't matter, because you choose an agitation regime that gives you the results you want.

Also, the importance of small variations in agitation is commonly exaggerated. The difference between minimal and constant agitation is equivalent to at most a change in dev time of about 15%. From this it is not hard to see that the difference between 10% agitation (6 seconds/minute) and 20% agitation (12 seconds/minute) is unlikely to equate to more than about a 5% change in dev time, e.g. 30 sec. in a 10 minute dev time. From personal experience over 40+ years I'd say it was actually a good deal less than that.

Of course you need to be as consistent as possible, but (as with most things in photography) it is all too easy to become obsessive and to look for an accuracy that is not there and cannot be brought to the process.

If you want more accuracy, one of the most useful tricks is to take the temperature of the dev as it goes in, and when you drain it out. This may convince you of the importance of a water bath. It's also worth remembering that precisely because plastic holds the heat better, it also takes longer to warm up/cool down and has a greater thermal capacity, i.e. a warm or cool tank will have a greater effect on the temperature of the dev. than a stainless one.

Cheers,

R.

 

[maddoc]

It matters as shown here. (Masuko reels, Japan) Additionally, shape of the inlet tube, and the distances between the film and bottom / lid of the tank also can have an influence on the homogeneity of the developing process. Disadvantage of the Masuko tank system is the bigger volume and price ...

 

[itf]

It's also worth remembering that precisely because plastic holds the heat better, it also takes longer to warm up/cool down and has a greater thermal capacity, i.e. a warm or cool tank will have a greater effect on the temperature of the dev. than a stainless one.

I thought a steel tank would have a greater effect on the temperature. Both would change the temperature initially upon contact but the steel would go on conducting heat between the developer and the outside atmosphere much more effectively.

When I'm camping, I sometimes drink my tea from the aluminium saucepan of my stove, other times from a plastic mug. The tea in the saucepan cools down much quicker depite the facts that the water was boiled in the aluminium (so its been heated up along with the water) and that I usually make a much larger tea in the saucepan (so there's a higher heat value for the same temperature).

😕

 

[maddoc]

A steel tank heats faster up and cools faster down compared with a tank made from plastic due to the higher thermal conductivity as Roger stated. In practical terms it means, that one should not hold a stainless steel tank permanently in the hands when using long development times because the developer will warm up with time.

 

[Roger Hicks]

It matters as shown here. (Masuko reels, Japan) ...

Well, yes, except that this is a manufacturer trying to sell their own reels. I prefer John & Field, A Textbook of Photographic Chemistry, London 1963:

"...it is essential for the operator to adopt his own standard of agitation, to which he faithfully adheres. The standard may be almost anything, if it has been proved to give satisfactory results..."

Both Haist and Coote have surprisingly little to say about agitation, though Coote's conclusion is that "For a treatment period of between five and ten minutes, ten seconds of vigorous agitation at the commencement of development and ten seconds agitation during each subsequent minute shoukd result in uniform development."

I should add that I was thinking only of 35mm and roll film in my original reply. Tanks for 4x5 are another matter; distressingly few of them, used in daylight, deliver especially uniform agitation.

Cheers,

R.

 

[itf]

Ah sorry, I misread Roger's post. My quick skim of it had me thinking he was saying the outside temperature would make more difference with plastic, but was actually saying the temperature of the tank would make more difference and if using a water bath would not be as consistent. Can't argue with that.

 

[wde60]

I've found that it does. I have two plastic tanks, a Patterson "two reel" and a small generic "one reel". Using the same developer, 35mm film stock, temperature and agitation, the smaller tank produces denser negatives. Maybe one stop more.
Warren

 

[titrisol]

It doesn't really matter once you settle in a development routine technique
I guess there a few things to considre before you buy but once you get it just learn to deal with it

 

[kipkeston]

I see I see. I'm actually thinking of switching from paterson plastic to the steel tank. It'll save chems for sure.

 

[Roger Hicks]

On thinking about this more, I realize that I am also assuming you have a decent tank. Yes, some tanks really don't allow easy, effective agitation, especially some very old plastic ones. But they wouldn't, regardless of how you agitated.

So what I'm saying, really, is that as long as you have a tank that allows decent agitation -- which is the case with any decent 35mm or 120 tank I have used or seen in the last 40+ years -- it doesn't really matter. Which is, I suppose, about 180 degrees from my original post. Sorry.

Cheers,

R.

 

[itf]

I've found that it does. I have two plastic tanks, a Patterson "two reel" and a small generic "one reel". Using the same developer, 35mm film stock, temperature and agitation, the smaller tank produces denser negatives. Maybe one stop more.
Warren

Oh, does each tank take the same amount for each roll? Or do you just fuill them up? If the small tank takes more developer per roll of film that could explain it. Or, if you just fill the tanks up without following the quantities suggested the single roll gets all the extra developer whereas the double tank would share the extra between two rolls of film. More developer per roll = less developer exhaustion = higher density for the same time.

 

[Roger Hicks]

I see I see. I'm actually thinking of switching from paterson plastic to the steel tank. It'll save chems for sure.

Yes and no. I always process 35mm in stainless (425ml/15 oz, Kindermann dual tank, 225 ml/8 oz, Kindermann single), unless I'm using the CPE-2, but for 120, I can get two films on one reel and thereby save time and chemicals (485ml/17 oz Jobo).

Cheers,

Roger

 

[wde60]

Oh, does each tank take the same amount for each roll? Or do you just fuill them up? If the small tank takes more developer per roll of film that could explain it. Or, if you just fill the tanks up without following the quantities suggested the single roll gets all the extra developer whereas the double tank would share the extra between two rolls of film. More developer per roll = less developer exhaustion = higher density for the same time.

I usually use Rodinal 1:100. For example, one roll of 35mm film in each tank, the larger tank one has 5ml of developer diluted in 500ml water and the smaller tank has 3.5ml of developer in 350ml water.

 

[vieri]

I thought a steel tank would have a greater effect on the temperature. Both would change the temperature initially upon contact but the steel would go on conducting heat between the developer and the outside atmosphere much more effectively.

When I'm camping, I sometimes drink my tea from the aluminium saucepan of my stove, other times from a plastic mug. The tea in the saucepan cools down much quicker depite the facts that the water was boiled in the aluminium (so its been heated up along with the water) and that I usually make a much larger tea in the saucepan (so there's a higher heat value for the same temperature).

😕

The reason is, aluminum is a great heat dissipator - heat goes through it slightly slower than through air, so to speak (reason why, cooking folios are made of aluminum, heat goes through them easily); steel isn't as much. Heat two cups or saucers, one made of aluminum one made of steel, let them sit for one minute and the aluminum would be near cold, while you wouldn't want to touch the steel 😀 hope this helps solve some doubts 🙄

 

[minoltist7]

I've been wondering if maybe different tanks have different affects on agitation. Has anyone had such experience? Am I going to regret making this thread in the morning?

Different tanks allow different methods of agitation.
Most manufacturers propose agitation based on inversion.
I use tank which cannot be inverted upside down , so I rotate spiral each minute by 10 seconds. Method of agitation affects time. When I use recommended time, I often get too thin negatives. Increased dev time gives me better result in terms of contrast

 

[Arvay]

My evolution of tanks : Kaiser (leaking, bad spiral) - Paterson (leaking, but spiral is very comfortable for me) - Jobo 1520 (great in all)

 

[Tom A]

I have used most of the tanks by various manufacturers over the years. I have standardized on Patersons these days (one reason is that for some obscure reason I have 110 Paterson reels!!!). I cant say that there is much differences in thermal transfer etc with black/white - in color it can matter more.
One of my criterias is that the tank has to be able to be filled and drained quickly. The Paterson does that well, while the Nikkor/Kinderman are more difficult. My patersons also fit my roller system for continous agitation (a couple of Uni Color reciprocating rollers). The Stainless steel tanks have too small diameter for those.

I am old enough to remember the Nikkor tanks with the tight (REALLY Tight) fitting cap! Desperate moments when you tried to get the cap off and drain it as the seconds ticked by!

The Paterson tanks do crack with use though and I always hunt around for "back-ups" (like the reels!) at swapmeets and in camera stores. It used to be that you could return cracked or chipped tanks to Paterson (or their distributor) and get a free replacement from them.

Another reason for using the bigger volume 5 reel tanks is that I am not worried about dilution. Developers like Xtol do need a certain amount of active solution in them and the 4 reel stainless tanks have just a bit too little of it when you run 1:3 dilution.