wray
Well-known
My cousins in the Midlands of the UK think I sound Irish when I speak!!
Chris101
summicronia
Ray, I've always called the 'neutral American accent' a California accent, since that is where the actors from television, movies and commercials usually come from. Ever notice how nobody in CA has an accent? 
wray
Well-known
Ray, I've always called the 'neutral American accent' a California accent, since that is where the actors from television, movies and commercials usually come from. Ever notice how nobody in CA has an accent?
Not anymore! There once existed a distinct San Francisco accent. Sadly, it has disappeared. I love regional accents especially on Southern American women!!
Tuolumne
Veteran
I believe it started with American comedians, many of whose jokes and stories begin with "So,". I don't know who was the first to employ the construct, though.
/T
/T
MacDaddy
Certified Machead
GEEZ! All this rhetoric and no truly complete answer to the question! This is NOT a full answer for you Roger but, as an English Literature major, I go to THE authoritative source-The Oxford English Dictionary (shorter version included FREE with any new Macintosh computer!) and here is what I feel is the relevant portion of their definition:
Use as a conjunction:
1 and for this reason; therefore : it was still painful, so I went to see a specialist | you know I'm telling the truth, so don't interrupt.
• ( so that) with the result that : it was overgrown with brambles, so that I had difficulty making any progress.
2 ( so that) with the aim that; in order that : they whisper to each other so that no one else can hear.
3 and then; as the next step : and so to the finals.
4 introducing a question : so, what did you do today?
• introducing a question following on from what was said previously : so what did he do about it?
• (also so what?) informal why should that be considered significant? : “Marv is wearing a suit.” “So?” | so what if he failed?
5 introducing a statement that is followed by a defensive comment : so I like anchovies—what's wrong with that?
6 introducing a concluding statement : so that's that.
Maybe this gets closer to a proper answer to your initial question! (If anyone actually remembers what that was after six pages of replies!)
Rob
Use as a conjunction:
1 and for this reason; therefore : it was still painful, so I went to see a specialist | you know I'm telling the truth, so don't interrupt.
• ( so that) with the result that : it was overgrown with brambles, so that I had difficulty making any progress.
2 ( so that) with the aim that; in order that : they whisper to each other so that no one else can hear.
3 and then; as the next step : and so to the finals.
4 introducing a question : so, what did you do today?
• introducing a question following on from what was said previously : so what did he do about it?
• (also so what?) informal why should that be considered significant? : “Marv is wearing a suit.” “So?” | so what if he failed?
5 introducing a statement that is followed by a defensive comment : so I like anchovies—what's wrong with that?
6 introducing a concluding statement : so that's that.
Maybe this gets closer to a proper answer to your initial question! (If anyone actually remembers what that was after six pages of replies!)
Rob
wgerrard
Veteran
I stand happily corrected. That trade name might be ALCOA, the Aluminum Company of America.
JohnTF
Veteran
Well, all those periodic tables in the US are using a trade name? ;-)
Maybe Alcoa printed them.
For some reason, it has not been unusual that differences of opinions occur and sometimes international conventions discuss the naming of elements. Some places call Wolfram Tungsten, some symbols are changed, Argon was A and is now Ar, probably to distinguish it from Angstrom, the Russians agreed to names for the higher trans Uranium elements, ending years of dispute.
In the case of Tungsten, it is fortunate that they kept Tungsten longer, as I grew up on Tungsten Road, which also had the GE Filament plant, would have had to
change the street signs, and my address?
I have long heard aluminium in the UK, and aluminum elsewhere.
The modern process that made aluminum cheaply enough for common usage was developed near, Cleveland, Oberlin? by I believe Hall, who founded the Aluminum Corporation of America, Alcoa.
And I am aware that the same process was developed almost at the same time in Europe, there seems to be no real big competition as to who did what exactly first. Both made out rather well.
Aluminum was once used to make crowns for Royal families, which is the origin of Royal Crown Cola in cans.
The crown (cap) of the Washington Monument was displayed in Tiffany's window in NY before it was put in place.
So, I guess that is about enough. ;-)
Regards, John
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JohnTF
Veteran
Ray, I've always called the 'neutral American accent' a California accent, since that is where the actors from television, movies and commercials usually come from. Ever notice how nobody in CA has an accent?
They don't come from there, they go there, from Cleveland, or Nebraska, or Canada. ;-)
JohnTF
Veteran
The company was named for the metal, not the other way around, I assume Hall could read a periodic table at Oberlin. ;-)
dmr
Registered Abuser
One very interesting map if you can easily find one is that showing "isogloss" placement. (Think isobars on a weather map.) The classic one I remember (I googled and could not find a good example easily) showed one isogloss, that being what we might call American Broadcast English, beginning in upstate NY, looping around Pittsburgh, passing through Cleveland and Toledo, just south of Chicago, just north of Omaha, Denver, and out to California.
I've lived in the Omaha area for 30-some years now and I've always regarded the non-accent here to be about as neutral as you can ever hear. If you go south to Missouri there's a definite "twang" beginning to appear. Go north and you start to hear the "Minnesoooota" stereotype.
Omaha itself seems to be a melting pot of terminology. "Soda" and "pop" are both heard, ditto with "pail" and "bucket", "basement" and "cellar", etc. The only regionalism I can think of right off hand is "crick" for a moving body of water smaller than a river but larger than a brook, but you will hear "creek" as well.
One I can never seem to get used to is "interstate" for any limited access highway. People here call the Kennedy Freeway and Storz Expressway "interstates" even though they are not signed I-{whatever}.
Oh well, interesting thread.
dmr
Registered Abuser
Ever notice how nobody in CA has an accent?
Like doooood, ya know, this is sooooo true, fer-shure!
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Rob,
You know, I never thought to look in the OED! Heading 4 certainly seems to cover it, but my question really was when and how this usage appeared as a beginning to a conversation, and above all as a written introduction. Until recently, it was normally reserved (in my experience) for a contintuation -- and as several have pointed out, this idea of a 'false continuation' may be central to its usage, at least by some.
I did however check the OED for aluminum/aluminium, as I have been meaning to do for several days. This confirmed my recollection that aluminum was the older form, but that the discoverer of the metal, Sir Humphry Davy, had changed the word after brief usage to aluminium as having a more classical sound. What I did not know was that before he called it aluminum he called it alumium.
Cheers,
R.
JohnTF
Veteran
Roger,
The "ium" endings are much more common in the endings of metallic elements, good catch on the Davy research, -- until the late 19th century not too many people had much contact with the metal, though again, it is the most common metal in the crust, and right on the line between metal and non metal, much is tied up in the crystals of silicate rocks.
I did look for an on line copy of the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, I think mine is in my office, but I could not access the content without paying a fee.
Evidently it is still published annually, and I recall really old ones in school also having Kodak formulas.
My old edition has a good half page description and history of each of the elements.
The oldest known elements, particularly the native metals, have names that predate modern English, copper, lead, gold, as betrayed by their symbols, etc.
I am guessing you would have a copy lying about the place, Roger?
A good, $100 or less, balance, and a few chemicals, and we may well be mixing our own in a few years. Obviously it was far more common when we were young, and many chemicals were on the shelves in Skoda Photo in Prague at very low prices.
Regards, John
The "ium" endings are much more common in the endings of metallic elements, good catch on the Davy research, -- until the late 19th century not too many people had much contact with the metal, though again, it is the most common metal in the crust, and right on the line between metal and non metal, much is tied up in the crystals of silicate rocks.
I did look for an on line copy of the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, I think mine is in my office, but I could not access the content without paying a fee.
Evidently it is still published annually, and I recall really old ones in school also having Kodak formulas.
My old edition has a good half page description and history of each of the elements.
The oldest known elements, particularly the native metals, have names that predate modern English, copper, lead, gold, as betrayed by their symbols, etc.
I am guessing you would have a copy lying about the place, Roger?
A good, $100 or less, balance, and a few chemicals, and we may well be mixing our own in a few years. Obviously it was far more common when we were young, and many chemicals were on the shelves in Skoda Photo in Prague at very low prices.
Regards, John
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JohnTF
Veteran
One very interesting map if you can easily find one is that showing "isogloss" placement. (Think isobars on a weather map.) The classic one I remember (I googled and could not find a good example easily) showed one isogloss, that being what we might call American Broadcast English, beginning in upstate NY, looping around Pittsburgh, passing through Cleveland and Toledo, just south of Chicago, just north of Omaha, Denver, and out to California.
I've lived in the Omaha area for 30-some years now and I've always regarded the non-accent here to be about as neutral as you can ever hear. If you go south to Missouri there's a definite "twang" beginning to appear. Go north and you start to hear the "Minnesoooota" stereotype.
Omaha itself seems to be a melting pot of terminology. "Soda" and "pop" are both heard, ditto with "pail" and "bucket", "basement" and "cellar", etc. The only regionalism I can think of right off hand is "crick" for a moving body of water smaller than a river but larger than a brook, but you will hear "creek" as well.
One I can never seem to get used to is "interstate" for any limited access highway. People here call the Kennedy Freeway and Storz Expressway "interstates" even though they are not signed I-{whatever}.
Oh well, interesting thread.
Isogloss, interesting, -- Iso means "same", I think the line from Pittsburgh to Cleveland might be a bit of a steep angle.
Pittsburgh has its interesting word usages, an odd way of saying book, and the comments such as, "My camera needs rebuilt".
No one around here would say crick, and while pop is the norm, sometimes it is a soda pop, you might catch soda in Pittsburgh.
I think we clip or flatten the "a" in car, or so I am told.
Regards, John
dmr
Registered Abuser
IIRC, the isogloss kind of circled around Pgh.
The one that gets me is the conversation we had with a local in Birmingham ... "now here, Pepsi is a kind of coke."
Michael Markey
Veteran
Interesting piece on BBC radio 4 this morning about the origin of Hello. Used in it`s original form as a exclamatory shout to dogs on the hunting field. Norman in origin. Still being used as an off stage shout rather than a greeting by Shakespeare.The most common form of greeting at that time was "what cheer" still used in the east end as "Whatcha".
So who is credited with first using Hello as a form of greeting ? Well it was America. First recorded in New Hampshire in the 1820`s and then again used by a Mr. D Crockett in his book about 1833.
It entered common usage because of the rivalry between Bell and Edison re the telephone. Bell thought that Ahoy was a more suitable introduction ,redolent of ships and communication at sea. Edison thought otherwise. We know whose view was to prevail. You can listen to it on BBC i player.
So who is credited with first using Hello as a form of greeting ? Well it was America. First recorded in New Hampshire in the 1820`s and then again used by a Mr. D Crockett in his book about 1833.
It entered common usage because of the rivalry between Bell and Edison re the telephone. Bell thought that Ahoy was a more suitable introduction ,redolent of ships and communication at sea. Edison thought otherwise. We know whose view was to prevail. You can listen to it on BBC i player.
dmr
Registered Abuser
What Cheer?
What Cheer?
Oh really?
Interesting ...
I've always wondered where that expression came from.
There's a town in Iowa, east of Des Moines, called What Cheer. I've never been there but I've see the off-ramp sign and kinda wondered about it.
There's also a web design firm here by that name. They have a studio in one of the oh-so-trendy neighborhoods:
This photo was actually done at night, all the light came from street lamps.
http://www.what-cheer.com/
What Cheer?
Oh really?
Interesting ...
I've always wondered where that expression came from.
There's a town in Iowa, east of Des Moines, called What Cheer. I've never been there but I've see the off-ramp sign and kinda wondered about it.
There's also a web design firm here by that name. They have a studio in one of the oh-so-trendy neighborhoods:
This photo was actually done at night, all the light came from street lamps.
http://www.what-cheer.com/
MickH
Well-known
Ahoy Michael,
Stephen Fry's series has been a real joy. Sadly I missed today's installment so will have to resort to iPlayer.
There are three sources for information that I completely rely on and trust, one need look nowhere else:
Wikipedia
Stephen Fry on "QI"
and Bill Bryson
Bill Bryson has written two very interesting books on the English language "Mother Tongue" which concerns itself with English and its roots, and "Made in America" which covers the use of English by the colonials. I was very surprised at how many expressions and idioms that I would have thought were originally English turn out to be "Americanisms".
Cheers.
Stephen Fry's series has been a real joy. Sadly I missed today's installment so will have to resort to iPlayer.
There are three sources for information that I completely rely on and trust, one need look nowhere else:
Wikipedia
Stephen Fry on "QI"
and Bill Bryson
Bill Bryson has written two very interesting books on the English language "Mother Tongue" which concerns itself with English and its roots, and "Made in America" which covers the use of English by the colonials. I was very surprised at how many expressions and idioms that I would have thought were originally English turn out to be "Americanisms".
Cheers.
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
So...you know, i meaaaan, well, don't know, really, what to say uh um, on this, uh, well.
Whatever, man. It's awesome, anyway, i mean, to use words such as, like, so and all.
You know what i mean?
(Correct answer: "Yea man, totally.")
Whatever, man. It's awesome, anyway, i mean, to use words such as, like, so and all.
You know what i mean?
(Correct answer: "Yea man, totally.")
JohnTF
Veteran
I tried to speak in as standard an English as I could manage around students, who thought they could turn "street" language on and off. Though English was not my certificated subject, I hammered them with standard English, explaining that a single slip could sink them on almost any decent job interview.
Kids get twelve years of English, but many want to "sound cool".
It is OK to play around a bit, but it is difficult to be truly bilingual in poor English and good English.
At present, there seems little societal expectation that someone who makes his living with language, either written or spoken, speaks correctly.
In that regard, the RFF average post seems to read decently, with the odd spelling faux pas, probably due to keyboarding errors, or alternate spellings.
Common errors in common usage are similar to a creeping vine and seem destined to be morphed in to accepted style if not grammar.
Way back, when I worked for a newspaper, copy began with the writer, went to one or two editors, and then a copy desk, with a number of discussions among perhaps a dozen pretty smart guys, before it went to the printers. When something was tossed out, anyone within ear shot could make an opinion known. Guys on the copy desk would work for years at these jobs.
We also had a style book for writing, in college, and each paper chose one, though I cannot name them, to aid in conformity of copy. I recall there was a dominant one. Am pretty sure big papers had created their own.
I have been out of the loop for a long time on that, and from what I see the book may have been lost. ;-) Perhaps there was only one very worn copy passed around?
We can, of course, make allowances for certain people who type with accents. ;-)
I did think the "what cheer" might be a sequel to the show set in Boston?
Regards, John
Kids get twelve years of English, but many want to "sound cool".
It is OK to play around a bit, but it is difficult to be truly bilingual in poor English and good English.
At present, there seems little societal expectation that someone who makes his living with language, either written or spoken, speaks correctly.
In that regard, the RFF average post seems to read decently, with the odd spelling faux pas, probably due to keyboarding errors, or alternate spellings.
Common errors in common usage are similar to a creeping vine and seem destined to be morphed in to accepted style if not grammar.
Way back, when I worked for a newspaper, copy began with the writer, went to one or two editors, and then a copy desk, with a number of discussions among perhaps a dozen pretty smart guys, before it went to the printers. When something was tossed out, anyone within ear shot could make an opinion known. Guys on the copy desk would work for years at these jobs.
We also had a style book for writing, in college, and each paper chose one, though I cannot name them, to aid in conformity of copy. I recall there was a dominant one. Am pretty sure big papers had created their own.
I have been out of the loop for a long time on that, and from what I see the book may have been lost. ;-) Perhaps there was only one very worn copy passed around?
We can, of course, make allowances for certain people who type with accents. ;-)
I did think the "what cheer" might be a sequel to the show set in Boston?
Regards, John
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