Sonnar, Jupiter 3 or Frankenlens?

Ron (Netherlands)

Ron (Netherlands)

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The CZJ Sonnar 5cm lenses made during the War have the "ears", both the F1.5 and F2 versions.

This lens looks real, probably made just after the end of the war.

http://www.ziforums.com/showthread.php?t=143

My late wartime lens is within 1000 lenses of this one, and I have disassembled it to show matching serial numbers on the rear optics module and a separate Sn for the focus mount, same number on three different pieces. My 1943 lens has serial numbers in the same positions on the pieces of the focus mount.

My 285 block Sonnar next to my 1949 ZK Sonnar.

picture.php
 
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If anyone doubts the origins of a ZK Sonnar, look for the original German serial number stamped on the rear module.

picture.php



This one started out as a 272 block lens. Left-over parts? Who knows.

The post-war CZJ Sonnars, Sn after 3Million, lost the ears.

I just picked up another bizarre Sonnar, has ears, in Contax mount. The rear module is different, glass is closer in size to a 5cm f2 lens. It is larger than the rear optics of the Arriflex mount lens. The rear module is bad, the rest of it polished up. For $80, I took a gamble. I may put optics from a J-8 into the rear to make it useable. That will be a Frankenlens.
 
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It's a franken lens. You may check the engraving on the meter scale - it looks completely different on a war-time CZJ Sonnar. For instance check "2" and "7". It seems this part of the barrel was taken from Jupiter-3. Also, it has a strange "m" written right after 1. Usually "m" is positioned in front of 1 (in a distance of roughly 1 cm). Also, check the front barrel (not sure how to call this part where the cap slides in) -- it is made of black metal which is a case for J-3. In the original CZJ Sonnar it is white aluminum alloy from the outside and black inside. Not sure how they made it like this. That's exactly how this part looks like on my CZJ Sonnar which is genuine (confirmed genuine!) To summarise: the lens doesn't worth much, actually it's worth much less than a good J-3 from the 50's.

BTW, the seller writes "you buy what you see" and has no responsibility for the product. This is a great approach to sell such stuff.
 
After taking apart a lot of these mystery Sonnars, my "opinion" is that a number were put together after the War ended with whatever parts were available. Genuine parts, genuine Zeiss glass, some fabricated to fill in missing pieces. I need to do a thread on them, I've taken apart at least a dozen and own a couple of them.

my 1943 Sonnar:

http://www.ziforums.com/showthread.php?t=120

And a collection of bizarre ones.

http://www.ziforums.com/showthread.php?t=224
 
Brian Sweeney said:
After taking apart a lot of these mystery Sonnars, my "opinion" is that a number were put together after the War ended with whatever parts were available. Genuine parts, genuine Zeiss glass, some fabricated to fill in missing pieces. I need to do a thread on them, I've taken apart at least a dozen and own a couple of them.

my 1943 Sonnar:

http://www.ziforums.com/showthread.php?t=120

And a collection of bizarre ones.

http://www.ziforums.com/showthread.php?t=224
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info and link Brian, albeit that we cannot see the pics you posted there (one must be member to be able to see them)
 
xoDox said:
It's a franken lens. You may check the engraving on the meter scale - it looks completely different on a war-time CZJ Sonnar. For instance check "2" and "7". It seems this part of the barrel was taken from Jupiter-3. Also, it has a strange "m" written right after 1. Usually "m" is positioned in front of 1 (in a distance of roughly 1 cm). Also, check the front barrel (not sure how to call this part where the cap slides in) -- it is made of black metal which is a case for J-3. In the original CZJ Sonnar it is white aluminum alloy from the outside and black inside. Not sure how they made it like this. That's exactly how this part looks like on my CZJ Sonnar which is genuine (confirmed genuine!) To summarise: the lens doesn't worth much, actually it's worth much less than a good J-3 from the 50's.

BTW, the seller writes "you buy what you see" and has no responsibility for the product. This is a great approach to sell such stuff.
Click to expand...


Thanks for the remarks. Indeed the numerals 2, 5 and 8 seem much more "round" on the Zeiss lens on Brians photo......
 
Brian,
Obviously, I agree with you that a stamp on a block lens gives the evidence of its aristocratic origin. Although, we know very well that optic elements can be switched with J-3. So Sonnar purists can never be sure which one is ginuine, and which is a Russian copy. There is no way to tell one from another considering that first ZK and J-3 from the 50's had German glass. Actually Russian made optics was not worse or even better than the original Sonnar particularly in 50-60's. Perhaps a shade of the coating may help here, but one should know what color the original Sonnars is!

It is true by the end of the war there were lots of bizzare "home-made" lenses. However, they all had in common one little thing -- a typical German (Sonnar) style to engrave numbers! Some ZK's continued to keep this style. Most likely there were Germans who set up the engraving process and worked on the Krasnogorsk factory. J-3 barrel engraving is much different -- one may check the "2", "4" and "7" and it becomes clear. Actually, the infinity character is also different on J-3. Being Russian I know this for sure -- we write numbers slightly different and it is reflected on the lens barrels of Russian made lenses.

The distance scale barrel of the lens in question comes from J-3! Having CZJ Sonnar, ZK and four J-3 from '51 to '56, I can tell one from another just from engraving style. BTW, you can check this on your pic of J-3 and CZJ Sonnar as well!

Although, you may be correct and the block lens of this "Sonnar" has a Sonnar stamp 🙂))

What counts in the end if this lens works as it should or it's just a paper weight!
 
This particular lens has a lot of damage from fungus. It might come off, but I suspect the balsam is also damaged. These lenses fascinate me, and they feel like what you would make after salvaging lots of parts. I worked on one lens that did not have any engravings on the exterior, but the internal parts had the proper numbers. Seems like salvage.

A number of the lenses have uncoated elements, and one had a front triplet that was not polished out properly. The front surface was not properly ground out. I put a German triplet in its place, and the lens works beautifully. Again- made from left over parts would be my guess. That lens made it back to me eventually, I traded one of my Pre-War Sonnars converted to LTM for it. Some of these lenses are better than others. The 285 lens that I have gives good results despite the front coating having much damage. I might replace it, but it gives nice results as it is.

My 285 Block Sonnar, at F1.5:
picture.php


picture.php


and at F4:
picture.php
 
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Some shots of my 1943 Sonnar, for comparison.

Also- some shots of the "hidden" Sn on the portion of the Helical. I tend to believe the presence of these numbers indicate that the parts are original Zeiss. I have found them on a lot of the strange 285 block lenses.
 

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