patrice
Newbie
Hello All,
This is my first post on this forum, on any forum whatsoever, for that matter.
I just bought, and will receive in a week or two, a Leica M3 SS and a Summicron 50mm DR - for what I think is a reasonable price, given the market.
Now this is part of my scheme to switch from digital to film - at least to try film, if not 'switching'. I have a digital SLR and sometimes I am bored with it. I am still a new photographer, in the sense that when I use the DSLR I let it do mostly everything and decide the settings for me - I don't know that much about exposure in a practical sense, except the theory and the basic principles governing the triad ISO-shutter speed-aperture. I read a lot and did some experimenting with my DSLR in manual mode, but somehow, I want to be 'forced' to use full manual settings, including not using a meter (it's so easy getting lazy with an automatic camera!). I feel that this will allow me to learn about picture-taking. The point is to use that M3 and to learn through trial and error. I feel that if I manage it, I'll be better with a DSLR, for one thing. I'll know more, if I have the patience.
Anyway, all this autobiography is meant to give you a sense of what I'm trying to do with the M3 that I don't have yet because I would need some advice from kind souls. I plan to use B&W film, but not sure with which ISO to begin, and which film in particular. It would be mostly for outdoor shots, some indoors.... I'll experiment, but starting with outdoor should be a good idea, don't you think?
Another question would be - do you think I could get away without a meter to start with? I'd like to learn how to evaluate light on my own eventually, it's part of my plan. But should I invest in a meter?
Anyway, I probably come across as a complete amateur in the bad sense, but hey, one's got to start somewhere!
Thanks!
This is my first post on this forum, on any forum whatsoever, for that matter.
I just bought, and will receive in a week or two, a Leica M3 SS and a Summicron 50mm DR - for what I think is a reasonable price, given the market.
Now this is part of my scheme to switch from digital to film - at least to try film, if not 'switching'. I have a digital SLR and sometimes I am bored with it. I am still a new photographer, in the sense that when I use the DSLR I let it do mostly everything and decide the settings for me - I don't know that much about exposure in a practical sense, except the theory and the basic principles governing the triad ISO-shutter speed-aperture. I read a lot and did some experimenting with my DSLR in manual mode, but somehow, I want to be 'forced' to use full manual settings, including not using a meter (it's so easy getting lazy with an automatic camera!). I feel that this will allow me to learn about picture-taking. The point is to use that M3 and to learn through trial and error. I feel that if I manage it, I'll be better with a DSLR, for one thing. I'll know more, if I have the patience.
Anyway, all this autobiography is meant to give you a sense of what I'm trying to do with the M3 that I don't have yet because I would need some advice from kind souls. I plan to use B&W film, but not sure with which ISO to begin, and which film in particular. It would be mostly for outdoor shots, some indoors.... I'll experiment, but starting with outdoor should be a good idea, don't you think?
Another question would be - do you think I could get away without a meter to start with? I'd like to learn how to evaluate light on my own eventually, it's part of my plan. But should I invest in a meter?
Anyway, I probably come across as a complete amateur in the bad sense, but hey, one's got to start somewhere!
Thanks!
Film dino
David Chong
Greetings Patrice & welcome to RFF
There are quite a few questions in your post; I'd just like to comment on the meter "issue"- in my book metering is part of the "manual exposure process". I find that the act of metering different parts of a scene make me think about exposure. So you should get a meter or maybe - in the meantime? use the dSLR for metering
There are quite a few questions in your post; I'd just like to comment on the meter "issue"- in my book metering is part of the "manual exposure process". I find that the act of metering different parts of a scene make me think about exposure. So you should get a meter or maybe - in the meantime? use the dSLR for metering
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
I agree with Dino. A light meter is a necessary tool, professionals don't guess on exposures, they use handheld meters or the built in meter if the camera has one so there's no need to 'prove yourself' by not using a meter. If you can afford it, get a good meter....it is the best investment you'll make in your work. If you can't afford one now, do like Dino suggested and use your D-SLR as a meter....just set it for the same ISO speed as the film you use.
I use 400 speed films, usually Tri-X, as my general purpose films for 35mm work. Fast enough to handhold in most situations but with fairly fine grain and good tonality and sharpness. If I need finer grain, big prints, or more detail, I use a medium format camera...its better than 35mm even if you use really slow film in your leica. If you don't have a medium format camera, then something like Tmax 100 or Fuji Acros is a good choice for when you want a lot of fine detail.
I use 400 speed films, usually Tri-X, as my general purpose films for 35mm work. Fast enough to handhold in most situations but with fairly fine grain and good tonality and sharpness. If I need finer grain, big prints, or more detail, I use a medium format camera...its better than 35mm even if you use really slow film in your leica. If you don't have a medium format camera, then something like Tmax 100 or Fuji Acros is a good choice for when you want a lot of fine detail.
patrice
Newbie
Thanks David for this advice. Yes, it sounds like a good idea to use the DSLR for metering to start with, but on the long term, it's not very practical. However, it would give me a sense of whether I should invest or not in a meter, and it will in any case do the trick while I decide on a meter and it gets here, etc.
fixbones
.......sometimes i thinks
Most will base their exposure loosely on the 'sunny 16' rule but still have a meter somewhere close.
Initially, you will rely quite a bit on metering but after while, you'll be able to guestimate quite accurately.
ISO 400 B & W film has great latitude, you'd be surprised....
Initially, you will rely quite a bit on metering but after while, you'll be able to guestimate quite accurately.
ISO 400 B & W film has great latitude, you'd be surprised....
fixbones
.......sometimes i thinks
Patrice, if you plan on shooting manual meterless film for awhile..... then i think it justifies the cost of getting a meter.
cnphoto
Well-known
between your DSLR and a print out 'Sunny 16' card, IMO, you'd be pretty set initially. Stick to one ISO of film and soon enough you should be bale to recall settings for different scenes off the top of your head. You can get a meter later should you feel the need.
have fun!
have fun!
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patrice
Newbie
Thanks Chris, again, sounds like good advice. I was hesitating about the metering stuff because I felt - perhaps wrongly - that it would 'teach' me more to go without one for a while. But thinking about it in relation to what you and Dave say makes me see things in a different light - maybe I'd learn plenty, and more, with a meter. I was thinking of these small Voigtlander VC II, eventually. Thanks also for the film advice.
patrice
Newbie
Wow guys, I just posted a few minutes ago, and already all this valuable advice! I am delighted. So flxbones, what do you mean exactly, 'if I plan to go without a meter, buying one is the thing to do' ? You mean that using the meter at first will give me a better sense, eventually, of how to go meterless?
ruby.monkey
Veteran
Meter - Sekonic L-208 twinmate fits in the pocket nicely and is a doddle to use. It's still down to you to interpret the meter's readings to suit your desired result.
Film - Ilford XP2 Super gives good results and can be processed by any minilab.
General advice - leave the lens cap at home, make doubly sure that nothing is dangling in front of the lens before you shoot, accept that framing will most likely be looser than with an SLR, get in the habit of carrying the camera wherever you go, focus and dry-fire the camera every time you have a spare moment - and leave the lens cap at home.
Film - Ilford XP2 Super gives good results and can be processed by any minilab.
General advice - leave the lens cap at home, make doubly sure that nothing is dangling in front of the lens before you shoot, accept that framing will most likely be looser than with an SLR, get in the habit of carrying the camera wherever you go, focus and dry-fire the camera every time you have a spare moment - and leave the lens cap at home.
patrice
Newbie
ruby monkey - thanks, I like the 'go and shoot' philosophy that you advocate. Isn't it what it's all about?
RichardB
Well-known
I would strongly suggest a course at a local Art College where they still start with the principles of photography and analog cameras. Exposure is only one of a set of principles that one should learn about photography.
I went many years using two Nikon F's one with FTn reader for determining exposure. When I finally purchased an M3, I used a Nikon to determine exposure until I got an M6 and have never really used the M3 since. Now I shoot with two M7's, even better, but I don't let the M7's determined the exposure but use the 'exposure lock' after metering the correct portion of the scene according to what i have learned about exposure over the years. I have analog exposure meters but don't ever use them.
I have never understood the 'group think' that an exposure meter is not needed and 'Sunny 16' is all you need because the exposure latitude of B&W film will suffice to render an image. It's like throwing paint on a canvas and saying because I can now see something, its OK.
Good luck, learning exposure is a worthwhile endeavor.-Dick
I went many years using two Nikon F's one with FTn reader for determining exposure. When I finally purchased an M3, I used a Nikon to determine exposure until I got an M6 and have never really used the M3 since. Now I shoot with two M7's, even better, but I don't let the M7's determined the exposure but use the 'exposure lock' after metering the correct portion of the scene according to what i have learned about exposure over the years. I have analog exposure meters but don't ever use them.
I have never understood the 'group think' that an exposure meter is not needed and 'Sunny 16' is all you need because the exposure latitude of B&W film will suffice to render an image. It's like throwing paint on a canvas and saying because I can now see something, its OK.
Good luck, learning exposure is a worthwhile endeavor.-Dick
Dave Jenkins
Loose Canon
The "sunny 16" rule really does work well for outdoor photography, especially if you use a film with very wide latitude such as Ilford's XP2 Super. My little Kodak Pocket Photoguide gives exposure recommendations for all kinds of situations, indoors and out, but I doubt it's still published. I've had mine for 40 years or so.
raid
Dad Photographer
On way to improve guess-metering is to guess the exposure and then use a meter to compare. I am nearly always correct about it now.Thsi way, I can quickly find out if the meter is off or not.
eieio
Member
My Panasonic GF-1 with 20mm was my light meter for a while, now I have silver Voigtlander VC meter II on top of my M2. It's small and light and also looks good on old-fashion body. 
I also have this chart in my pocket as well.
http://expomat.tripod.com/
It works!!
I also have this chart in my pocket as well.
http://expomat.tripod.com/
It works!!
hendriphile
Well-known
I guess most folks begin by using meters or exposure guides, and then go to "meterless", rather than the other way 'round. In the "good old days," every time you bought a roll of Kodak film, the inside of the box had a nice little exposure guide, I used to cut those out and tape them to the back of my camera. Sadly, that no longer exists today, but you can check out the "Black Cat exposure guide" or one of the other exposure guides available on the Net before investing in an electronic meter. The important thing is, HAVE FUN!
Juan Valdenebro
Truth is beauty
Hi Patrice,
How about starting without metering at all as you want?
If you use one film for direct sun only, your settings will be the same always...
For example I shoot at 1/250 f/8 1/2 with Tri-X and yellow filter... Some other people give the film less light and develop for longer, so they get more contrast... You can find what you like just with your M3 and a roll of film... The rule is "Sunny16": you use f/16 and a fraction of second near your film ISO... If it's ISO400, you can try f/16 1/500 to start your testing... Lots of people prefer "Sunny11"... It will depend on development time and what you like better...
Then after knowing very well a film for sun, you can try soft light scenes...
Will you develop your film?
Cheers,
Juan
How about starting without metering at all as you want?
If you use one film for direct sun only, your settings will be the same always...
For example I shoot at 1/250 f/8 1/2 with Tri-X and yellow filter... Some other people give the film less light and develop for longer, so they get more contrast... You can find what you like just with your M3 and a roll of film... The rule is "Sunny16": you use f/16 and a fraction of second near your film ISO... If it's ISO400, you can try f/16 1/500 to start your testing... Lots of people prefer "Sunny11"... It will depend on development time and what you like better...
Then after knowing very well a film for sun, you can try soft light scenes...
Will you develop your film?
Cheers,
Juan
umcelinho
Marcelo
I think having a meter to get a better idea of exposures at first is a good thing, it helps avoiding the "damn I've wasted so many frames in this roll" scenario, which can be quite frustrating and might lead to the idea that a meter will be always necessary.
Yes, for perfect accurate exposures a meter will probably be a must, but if you shoot B&W you can use sunny 16 and after a while it will get much easier to estimate exposures. Even after having my M6 for around a year or so, I was still relying too much on the built-in meter, and never paid attention to the actual speed i was shooting at. this year i got myself an M3 with a DR Summicron not so much for the camera itself, but for the lens. I thought that since the M3 has no built-in meter I wouldn't feel comfortable with it.
But... I started going out with it before I decided to sell it to make sure it was in fully working condition, and what a surprise it was to me. A couple times before I had gone out for shooting with my Yashica Mat, which has no meter, so I had to think about exposures, used a exposure calculator to help me have a better idea. after a couple developed rolls and paying attention to the apertures and speeds I started keeping in mind which aperture was suiting to each level of light etc. it's nice to feel that you 'get it'.
When I went out with the M3 I didn't bring any meter or exposure chart. I guessed the exposures based on sunny 16 and my previous meterless shooting experiences. And trust me, I was completely clueless about exposures... it's not something as tricky as it might seem to be at first. So I shot a couple B&W rolls guessing the exposures and it was such a liberating experience... With the M6 I would usually meter all the time, I felt like it because of the meter leds. With the M6 I usually shoot colour, though. With the M3 and B&W I really focused on shooting and not on adjusting anything, it was a perfect point and shoot.
I believe necessity is the mother of development, if you have a meter you tend to use it. Maybe the best would be to have a cheap pocket meter or maybe even an exposure chart and be patient to shoot a few rolls and get a feel of how things work out. It worked like this for me and it was quite rewarding. But I admit low light situations can be still tricky to guess.
Yes, for perfect accurate exposures a meter will probably be a must, but if you shoot B&W you can use sunny 16 and after a while it will get much easier to estimate exposures. Even after having my M6 for around a year or so, I was still relying too much on the built-in meter, and never paid attention to the actual speed i was shooting at. this year i got myself an M3 with a DR Summicron not so much for the camera itself, but for the lens. I thought that since the M3 has no built-in meter I wouldn't feel comfortable with it.
But... I started going out with it before I decided to sell it to make sure it was in fully working condition, and what a surprise it was to me. A couple times before I had gone out for shooting with my Yashica Mat, which has no meter, so I had to think about exposures, used a exposure calculator to help me have a better idea. after a couple developed rolls and paying attention to the apertures and speeds I started keeping in mind which aperture was suiting to each level of light etc. it's nice to feel that you 'get it'.
When I went out with the M3 I didn't bring any meter or exposure chart. I guessed the exposures based on sunny 16 and my previous meterless shooting experiences. And trust me, I was completely clueless about exposures... it's not something as tricky as it might seem to be at first. So I shot a couple B&W rolls guessing the exposures and it was such a liberating experience... With the M6 I would usually meter all the time, I felt like it because of the meter leds. With the M6 I usually shoot colour, though. With the M3 and B&W I really focused on shooting and not on adjusting anything, it was a perfect point and shoot.
I believe necessity is the mother of development, if you have a meter you tend to use it. Maybe the best would be to have a cheap pocket meter or maybe even an exposure chart and be patient to shoot a few rolls and get a feel of how things work out. It worked like this for me and it was quite rewarding. But I admit low light situations can be still tricky to guess.
thomasw_
Well-known
Learning to get exposures with b+w film the way you want is not that hard. What is hard would be carrying around your dSLR as just your meter!!! Do yourself a favour and cut down on neck and camera-bag clutter, get yourself a Gossen Digisix or Sekonic L-208 and use it to meter. After shooting and developing 25 - 40 rolls of b+w film at the same ISO, you will start to get a knack for reading the light quite accurately -- at that ISO. But there will be situations where you will still want to meter a portion of a scene in mixed lighting or you are using slide film etc.; accordingly the meter will be a helpful tool even after you can do a lot of the metering with your standard films.
Best regards, Thomas
Best regards, Thomas
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Juan Valdenebro
Truth is beauty
Even if you don't develop, go under the sun just with your M3 and one lens, and having in mind Sunny11, shoot three quick images of every irrelevant scene: one at Sunny11, and the other two, one stop above that and one stop below that. Get the roll developed. It will take you just minutes and you'll be ready for sun with that film forever...
Without direct sun, you'll need a meter...
Cheers,
Juan
Without direct sun, you'll need a meter...
Cheers,
Juan