Soviet aluminum wartime Sonnar 5cm f1,5?

Räuber

Räuber

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I'm still on a hunt for a special wartime Sonnar 5cm f/1,5. It is an aluminum T-coated lens with silver filter rim and broad grip ring for Contax. You can find it as [v4b ZJ CR as] in my guide. I had one in my hands years ago but let it go. There is another variation that only differ by the filter rim, it is black. Well, I call it [v4b ZJ CR ab].

Here is my question. Are those both lenses genuine Carl Zeiss Jena lenses or were they produced by Soviets?

When I collected the data for the guide I thought that both variations were born out of material scarcity and to simplify the body for easier production. And this might be true. There is a preceding variation with smaller grip, smaller aperture dot and heavier chrome build. I call it [v4b ZJ CR cbT] My expectation was that during the war CZJ stopped production of this heavier chrome bodies and manufactured those aluminum bodies to the end of WWII.

[v4b ZJ CR cbT] => [v4b ZJ CR as] => [v4b ZJ CR ab]

At first the collected serials seemed to proof this theory. Lets look at Contax batches

b46 = cbT
b52 = cbT
b56 = as
b58 = as + ZK + Jupiters
b62 = ab
b63 = cbT
b64 = cbT
b68 = ab + ZK
b69 = as + ab + ZK + Jupiter

Not a clear image anymore. The weakness of the batch system is that we do not know for sure when a batch was really produced. Especially during wartime batches were halted even canceled or only produced in slow speed. The serial or starting time of a batch does not tell much about reality. But the closeness to a lot of those lenses in question to Zorkis and Jupiters makes me uncomfortable about my assumptions.

I wanted to ask you guys what do you think about those aluminum lenses. Are they pure CZJ or is the body made by KMZ?
 
I looked at my Contax Jupiters and they share some equal properties. I will show you what I mean.

Here are 2 cbT and one ab (middle).

IMG_6910_resize.jpgIMG_6909_resize.jpg

Notice the difference of the aperture mark, locking pin and grip. But keep attention to the drilled hole at the mount part.

Here is a 1949 Zorkii (left), Sonnar ab (middle), 1963 Jupiter (right)

IMG_6911_resize.jpgIMG_6912_resize.jpg

Notice the aperture mark, locking pin and grip too. Attention to the drilled hole at the mount part.

The 1949 Zorkii and the Sonnar ab share almost the same body. The finish is different in a way that the Zorkii is more mate. The Soviet Sonnar copies all have a circle round drilled hole at its base. All share the same simple locking pin with red painted top side.

When we look at the predecessor cbT the drilled hole at the mount is more oval like a zero number. The body differs in some major ways.

Is this a proof of that the Sonnar as and ab were produced in Krasnogorsk? Maybe or maybe not. Maybe CZJ changed the body during or after WWII and then the Soviets packed everything into cargo trains, moved it to Krasnogorsk and continued with this new design. I see the similarities but I see no clear proof of either theory.

What do you think?
 
I have a 278xxxx 5cm F1.5 Sonnar, chrome nose and thin grip- This is a wartime lens made in Contax mount. Same optics as my others.

I have a 276xxxx 5cm F1.5 Sonnar with Black Nose and wide grip. This lens has the same optics as the post-war CZJ 5cm F1.5.

I would suspect that a wide-ring Contax mount Sonnar with a silver filter ring was made after the war, perhaps by Zeiss Jena employees while the factory was being re-assembled. I've never seen a ZK or Jupiter with the optics from a Post-War CZJ 5cm F1.5 Sonnar.
 
DSC06399.jpg

I was lucky and got the missing silver rim CZJ Contax Sonnar 5cm f/1,5 in my hands. From left to the right:

  1. 2.786M 1943 v4b ZJ CR cbT
  2. 2.709M 1942 v4b ZJ CR as
  3. 2.858M 1945 v4b ZJ CR ab
  4. 1963 Jupiter-3
The second and third Sonnar are essentially the same but the color of the filter rim.
DSC06400.jpg

Here is a better view of the rear end. Notice the shape of the drill hole in the mount section. All Chrome Sonnars from CZJ have an oval shaped drill hole ( shaped like the number 0 ). The Soviet Jupiter has a round drill hole.

DSC06401.jpg

So you migth better see the differnces in grip height and size of the aperture mark dot.

DSC06402.jpg

There is a connection here between this wartime / post-war Sonnar and the later Jupiter-3 production. If I had to guess I would assume that Jena had to change the design for the later Krasnogorsk production. They produced some batches and then the whole production line went to the FSU. There are stories that the Soviets forced Zeiss to provide them with all the necessary material and instruction that show them how to build Contax cameras and lenses. They forced Zeiss to demonstrate them how to do it by those instructions. They wanted a proof that they could build the lenses and cameras by themself before they took everything.

When I look at those last batches made before the switch to the new Sonnar design (3M) I see a clear image of [v4b ZJ CR as] and [v4b ZJ LT as] up to a certain point after the war. After this point the whole order is out of the window. My interpretation of what I see in the tables is: during WWII CZJ produced [v4b ZJ CR cbT] mainly. This body is pretty expensive to build. Although CZJ spend some afford in reducing precious metal and replacing it with cheaper easily available metal they still used a Chrome finish and some small fiddly details like the red line at the mount pin. After the Soviets occupied Jena the new administration ordered huge amounts of Leica thread mount and Contax Sonnars. If you look at batch 58 and 69 you clearly see what happened next. (Don't get confused by the starting date of 1942 or 1943. CZJ stalled a lot of orders during wartime since military production was more important. At the end of WWII they restarted those batches for the new Soviet customer. A paper tigers tactic for the order books.) At the start of those batches CZJ produced the Contax and LTM Sonnars ([v4b ZJ CR as] and [v4b ZJ LT as]) in equal amounts and suddenly the batch is full of Jupiters and fake hacked Sonnars. Well the Soviets did not wait until Zeiss finished their production work on the Soviet order. They moved the whole production line with all the parts, machines and tools to the FSU. In Krasnogorsk they started then by assembling all the unfinished lenses.

When you look at Jupiter-3 lenses you notice that they feature a black filter rim. So I suspect that those black rim [v4b ZJ CR ab] were assembled in Krasnogorsk from unfinished Jena Sonnars. In Krasnogorsk they had assembled lens blocks from Jena with engraved beauty rings stating Carl Zeiss Jena and the original serial. They only needed to put them into a shell. My black rim Sonnar came with a Kiev IV. No proof but no coincidence it seems. ( it was my very first Sonnar 5cm f/1,5 🥳 )
 
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I try my best to use an easy language so all of us can have a productive discussion here. 😄 Unfortunately a lot of what I write heavily leans into what I have published previously.

So for all who are interested in the topic... to better understand my references take a look into the spreadsheets about the Sonnar 5cm F/1.5.

There is one spreadsheet with all variations of the Sonnar 5cm f/1,5. The column "short name" contains the abbreviation of the variations discussed here.



Then there is a spreadsheet with all production batches of this lens from Zeiss. You can find serials, production dates and more information in there from 1932 until today.



All those above spreadsheets are excerpts from a collection of serials of Sonnar 5cm f/1,5 lenses collected over the years. This collection might sound like a boring table of meaningless serial numbers but it is where the real insight in the history of this lens can be found. Here you see all the griddy details interesting for collectors and historians. Scroll down to find batch 58 and 69 to see what the move from Jena to Krasnogorsk caused by yourself. The abbreviations from the variations spreadsheet can be found in the batch spreadsheet and in the serial collection too.

Here is the serial collection:



Have fun.
 
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