Argenticien
Dave
Hi all,
I'm in the (probably enviable) position of having a family member who works in a thrift store (charity shop), and they've got a process set up whereby any donated camera is brought to me for inspection and valuation before going out on the shelf for sale. This is to genuinely help the charity avoid stupid acts like saying "oh it's not digital, no one would be interested" re: an M3 with Summicron and pricing it USD 10. It also means I end up with right of first refusal on all cameras there!
(But if I keep one for myself, I do pay fair value for it, printing off comparable completed eBay auctions and having the store manager sign off on the price I will pay.)
Anyway, my knowledge is in 35 mm and conventional MF, and does not extend to Graphics, but that's what I just got handed for evaluation. After considerable research on graflex.org, Graflexchange, and similar, I think I've got this straight, but can you experts weight in on any of below, and if in the mood, venture guesses at value? (I'm guessing maybe USD 250 based on some semi-comparable recent eBay auctions.) I likely won't be keeping this one.
I think this is a 4x5 Pacemaker Speed Graphic (not Crown, as it has a focal-plane shutter), of about 1949ish vintage given the serial number 842xxx?
And this back is a Graphic ("spring") one, not Graflok, right?
Now to the true questions that I couldn't readily find answers to: It has a wide angle Optar 90/6.8 (same as Raptar 90/6.8, I've read). The shutter release (just left of the "G" in "GRAPHEX") is in the wrong place to be hit by the push-button spring-rod release thing in upper-left of lens board (as viewed from facing it). It looks like even if the lens were mounted 45 degrees anticlockwise from its current position, the tip still would not hit the release, as it's too far out from center. Similarly, the hook on the end of the solenoid does not connect. Is this normal for this lens simply because it's so tiny, or has someone mis-mounted this lens in the board?
Next: There's no cable to the front release -- what Jo Lommen calls a "Bowden cable" (see 7th picture here [although on different model]). In the pic below, there's nothing connected to the peg that moves when the body release is pressed with the sliding switch set to "Front," and the thing behind it (in crook of rangefinder arm) looks bent/damaged. Should there have ever been a cable attached there on this model?
And finally: There seems to be little correlation between the rangefinder, the Vernier distance scale, and when something is in focus on the GG. I've read that with the 90 mm, the standard need barely come out of the body onto the main rails on the bed. So where the infinity stops are set below (about 1/3 of the way out) can't possibly be right for this lens, can it?
Thanks for any insights on this. It's a remarkable machine, but a steep learning curve for those of us knowing only 35mm RFs, TLRs, Hassies, etc.
--Dave
I'm in the (probably enviable) position of having a family member who works in a thrift store (charity shop), and they've got a process set up whereby any donated camera is brought to me for inspection and valuation before going out on the shelf for sale. This is to genuinely help the charity avoid stupid acts like saying "oh it's not digital, no one would be interested" re: an M3 with Summicron and pricing it USD 10. It also means I end up with right of first refusal on all cameras there!
(But if I keep one for myself, I do pay fair value for it, printing off comparable completed eBay auctions and having the store manager sign off on the price I will pay.)Anyway, my knowledge is in 35 mm and conventional MF, and does not extend to Graphics, but that's what I just got handed for evaluation. After considerable research on graflex.org, Graflexchange, and similar, I think I've got this straight, but can you experts weight in on any of below, and if in the mood, venture guesses at value? (I'm guessing maybe USD 250 based on some semi-comparable recent eBay auctions.) I likely won't be keeping this one.
I think this is a 4x5 Pacemaker Speed Graphic (not Crown, as it has a focal-plane shutter), of about 1949ish vintage given the serial number 842xxx?
And this back is a Graphic ("spring") one, not Graflok, right?
Now to the true questions that I couldn't readily find answers to: It has a wide angle Optar 90/6.8 (same as Raptar 90/6.8, I've read). The shutter release (just left of the "G" in "GRAPHEX") is in the wrong place to be hit by the push-button spring-rod release thing in upper-left of lens board (as viewed from facing it). It looks like even if the lens were mounted 45 degrees anticlockwise from its current position, the tip still would not hit the release, as it's too far out from center. Similarly, the hook on the end of the solenoid does not connect. Is this normal for this lens simply because it's so tiny, or has someone mis-mounted this lens in the board?
Next: There's no cable to the front release -- what Jo Lommen calls a "Bowden cable" (see 7th picture here [although on different model]). In the pic below, there's nothing connected to the peg that moves when the body release is pressed with the sliding switch set to "Front," and the thing behind it (in crook of rangefinder arm) looks bent/damaged. Should there have ever been a cable attached there on this model?
And finally: There seems to be little correlation between the rangefinder, the Vernier distance scale, and when something is in focus on the GG. I've read that with the 90 mm, the standard need barely come out of the body onto the main rails on the bed. So where the infinity stops are set below (about 1/3 of the way out) can't possibly be right for this lens, can it?
Thanks for any insights on this. It's a remarkable machine, but a steep learning curve for those of us knowing only 35mm RFs, TLRs, Hassies, etc.
--Dave
FrankS
Registered User
Maybe $300 because of the WA lens.
The shutter tripping mechanism on the lens board is set up for a different lens, probably the normal Optar 135mm, not for this WA lens currently installed.
The infinity stops look like they are set up for a different lens, probably the normal Optar 135mm, not for this WA lens currently installed.
There should be a cable connecting the body shutter release to the lens, but it's used when the camera is hand held. On a tripod, hook a cable release directly to the lens, and by-pass the movement-inducing body release.
The shutter tripping mechanism on the lens board is set up for a different lens, probably the normal Optar 135mm, not for this WA lens currently installed.
The infinity stops look like they are set up for a different lens, probably the normal Optar 135mm, not for this WA lens currently installed.
There should be a cable connecting the body shutter release to the lens, but it's used when the camera is hand held. On a tripod, hook a cable release directly to the lens, and by-pass the movement-inducing body release.
Argenticien
Dave
Thanks, Frank! I should have mentioned, I did try a conventional cable release attached directly to the lens, and it would not fire. By contrast, when I use the release tab on the shutter bezel itself, all speeds fire fine. (In fact, after I try the cable, then some slow speeds stick until I exercise them using the bezel release about 5 times.) I've had trouble on other cameras with this cable, which is beginning to make me think the cable is bad, or just protrudes too far or something. (Argggh... yet more variables introduced.)
--Dave
oftheherd
Veteran
Which rangefinder does it have? Is it usable for 90mm lens?
JohnTF
Veteran
You have a heavily modified and well used Graphic with the old style back. Unless there is something awfully special about the lens, it would bring a very low price at a show, and they would give away the body. Lens looks very old as well, and the dipole sync does not help.
I am hearing that eBay prices are very high for a number of reasons, not all that logical.
Am guessing the last owner used the ground glass, and tripped the shutter by hand. I suppose you can try moving the inf. stops and see if the RF works, but you have no viewfinder, so not much point?
Last auction I attended, Super Speed Graphics in nice shape were not bringing all that high. Maybe the wrong people were there.
Regards, John
I am hearing that eBay prices are very high for a number of reasons, not all that logical.
Am guessing the last owner used the ground glass, and tripped the shutter by hand. I suppose you can try moving the inf. stops and see if the RF works, but you have no viewfinder, so not much point?
Last auction I attended, Super Speed Graphics in nice shape were not bringing all that high. Maybe the wrong people were there.
Regards, John
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Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
The Pacemaker RF can be adjusted for the 90mm lens but unless you're working up close and wide open, there's not much need. The 90 has a good amount of DOF for scale focusing. All you'd need is a proper vernier scale and it would be good to go. If the RF cam arm to the bed rails is bent there's usually no value in fixing it unless you have the part or a spare body handy to take the part from.
The lens IS on in the correct position but it's so small that the extra plunger type release won't hit it correctly. Same with the solenoid, that won't be able to fire a 90 Optar without re-mounting it on the board.
It looks like someone cut the body release cable at the arm where it comes out of the frame.
Using the 90mm on the Speed, you have to drop the bed or it can be seen just a bit in the frame.
Is the bellows light tight?
Have you tried the focal plane shutter? If you take off the whole spring back you should be able to give it a good inspection. Some of those things turn to dust after a few actuations. They are very prone to be wrinkled and cracked, lending plenty of dust particles to the inside of the camera while you're shooting with the leaf shuttered lens. The electric contacts on the shutter curtain or the copper spring that contacts it can also come off preventing it from tripping a bulb. The condition of the FPS is one thing that really needs to be considered when pricing.
With the issues you presented, I'd say the camera would go for a few more dollars than the lens. When I got my WA Optar, it worked perfectly until maybe 20 shots later when all it could fire on was Bulb.
I think $250 tops but would probably list it as $200 considering the body needs work or to be stripped and used for parts/field camera.
Phil Forrest
The lens IS on in the correct position but it's so small that the extra plunger type release won't hit it correctly. Same with the solenoid, that won't be able to fire a 90 Optar without re-mounting it on the board.
It looks like someone cut the body release cable at the arm where it comes out of the frame.
Using the 90mm on the Speed, you have to drop the bed or it can be seen just a bit in the frame.
Is the bellows light tight?
Have you tried the focal plane shutter? If you take off the whole spring back you should be able to give it a good inspection. Some of those things turn to dust after a few actuations. They are very prone to be wrinkled and cracked, lending plenty of dust particles to the inside of the camera while you're shooting with the leaf shuttered lens. The electric contacts on the shutter curtain or the copper spring that contacts it can also come off preventing it from tripping a bulb. The condition of the FPS is one thing that really needs to be considered when pricing.
With the issues you presented, I'd say the camera would go for a few more dollars than the lens. When I got my WA Optar, it worked perfectly until maybe 20 shots later when all it could fire on was Bulb.
I think $250 tops but would probably list it as $200 considering the body needs work or to be stripped and used for parts/field camera.
Phil Forrest
Landshark
Well-known
I'd suggest that the shutter is not correctly installed.
The indexes for shutter speed and aperture should be ~ at top & bottom and the aperture shouldn't be hiding behind the solenoid.
You have a camera that needs service, replacing cables. And a lens that needs a CLA. Dollar to a donut that's $100 or more. I'd put the value slightly lower than Phil's at around $150.00.
The indexes for shutter speed and aperture should be ~ at top & bottom and the aperture shouldn't be hiding behind the solenoid.
You have a camera that needs service, replacing cables. And a lens that needs a CLA. Dollar to a donut that's $100 or more. I'd put the value slightly lower than Phil's at around $150.00.
venchka
Veteran
Unless there are infinity stops for the 90, and I don't see any, getting the rangefinder calibrated for the 90 would be hit and miss. Mostly miss.
I'm no help with price. I only paid $100 for my 1953 one owner Pacemaker wth a choice Kodak 127mm Ektar lens in a perfect Kodak shutter. The box also contained 5 holders, a light saber Graflex flash and a sweet 100+ year old Voigtlander Collinear II lens on a Speed board. Some days you luck out.
I'm no help with price. I only paid $100 for my 1953 one owner Pacemaker wth a choice Kodak 127mm Ektar lens in a perfect Kodak shutter. The box also contained 5 holders, a light saber Graflex flash and a sweet 100+ year old Voigtlander Collinear II lens on a Speed board. Some days you luck out.
kuzano
Veteran
Is the shop planning on local sale (thrift shop)
Is the shop planning on local sale (thrift shop)
And how big is the town where you are located. Ie. traffic in the thrift shop.
I agree with most of the posts so far on price, but only with regard to eBay.
I find that local sales in thrift shops in small to mid size communities will not bring the prices listed in this post.
That's why eBayers shop garage sales and thrift stores and Craigslist for merchandise to sell on eBay. That's what I have been doing for about 9 years now... making pretty good money... but paying about half of what I can research the prices on eBay.
I operate on a "keystone" markup. The item must sell on eBay for twice what I pay for it including shipping, etc. Many times shopping local allows me to sell between two and three times my cost of an item by taking it to eBay. Most businesses would be ecstatic with that, if they could close their storefronts and avoid rent, utilities and wages to employees. Perhaps not very moral, but very ethical.
There is lots of inventory in local markets because the buying market is not local for the most part.
$75 to !00 max as it appears in a local market. Just another opinion based on my personal experience.
Is the shop planning on local sale (thrift shop)
And how big is the town where you are located. Ie. traffic in the thrift shop.
I agree with most of the posts so far on price, but only with regard to eBay.
I find that local sales in thrift shops in small to mid size communities will not bring the prices listed in this post.
That's why eBayers shop garage sales and thrift stores and Craigslist for merchandise to sell on eBay. That's what I have been doing for about 9 years now... making pretty good money... but paying about half of what I can research the prices on eBay.
I operate on a "keystone" markup. The item must sell on eBay for twice what I pay for it including shipping, etc. Many times shopping local allows me to sell between two and three times my cost of an item by taking it to eBay. Most businesses would be ecstatic with that, if they could close their storefronts and avoid rent, utilities and wages to employees. Perhaps not very moral, but very ethical.
There is lots of inventory in local markets because the buying market is not local for the most part.
$75 to !00 max as it appears in a local market. Just another opinion based on my personal experience.
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JohnTF
Veteran
I noted years ago that prices were very regional for 4x5 "Press Cameras", but that was when there was a school nearby that offered courses in LF photography. You could find nice ones, in the suitcase box with accessories, and often a Schneider lens for half. Some schools bought them up, and mounted modern LF lenses for student use.
A dealer would offer very little for this one, even better 90mm lenses go for low ball prices, and it does not have the Grafloc back.
You can make it work with some effort, I really wonder why the shutter does not fire with a normal release cable, it was common to catch the body release cable in the hinge and break that, so we would thread a normal release through the leather loop so you could fire the lens with your left hand when in the normal holding position.
"Condition + You can Make it Work" + other issues does not add up to an attractive price for the seller.
Regards, John
A dealer would offer very little for this one, even better 90mm lenses go for low ball prices, and it does not have the Grafloc back.
You can make it work with some effort, I really wonder why the shutter does not fire with a normal release cable, it was common to catch the body release cable in the hinge and break that, so we would thread a normal release through the leather loop so you could fire the lens with your left hand when in the normal holding position.
"Condition + You can Make it Work" + other issues does not add up to an attractive price for the seller.
Regards, John
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Argenticien
Dave
Wow, thanks for all the replies.
@Kuzano: Agreed on local vs. eBay. Simply, US eBay taps the entire US (plus whoever else is looking) as the pool of liquidity. If 1000 people in US are interested in Speed Graphics, all of them see the auction on eBay. But quite possibly zero of those 1000 are in my town, so a local sale will draw very little. (The Charlotte, NC metropolitan area is large enough, but shiny and new and soulless, focused on driving SUVs full of children to the strip mall, not on having an arts community.) I advise this store to sell online, but they're not yet fully engaged in the idea.
@Phil: Yes the bellows seem light-tight per flashlight (torch) test, and the focal-plane shutter fires and sounds about right. (Both of these would be better tested with film, but I have equipment to process only up to 120, not 4x5, and in any event, there are no film holders with it!)
@ofhteherd, JohnTF: It has got a VF on top, although presumably without the right mask for a 90. The RF is an old Kalart "Syncrhonized Range Finder" (I'm not sure how else to describe what model it is.) It responds to the focus knob being turned, and is clean with a contrasty RF patch, but is clearly not calibrated to this lens, so agreed, there's work to do if this camera were to continue to be used with this lens.
Thanks for all the advice, everyone!
--Dave
@Kuzano: Agreed on local vs. eBay. Simply, US eBay taps the entire US (plus whoever else is looking) as the pool of liquidity. If 1000 people in US are interested in Speed Graphics, all of them see the auction on eBay. But quite possibly zero of those 1000 are in my town, so a local sale will draw very little. (The Charlotte, NC metropolitan area is large enough, but shiny and new and soulless, focused on driving SUVs full of children to the strip mall, not on having an arts community.) I advise this store to sell online, but they're not yet fully engaged in the idea.
@Phil: Yes the bellows seem light-tight per flashlight (torch) test, and the focal-plane shutter fires and sounds about right. (Both of these would be better tested with film, but I have equipment to process only up to 120, not 4x5, and in any event, there are no film holders with it!)
@ofhteherd, JohnTF: It has got a VF on top, although presumably without the right mask for a 90. The RF is an old Kalart "Syncrhonized Range Finder" (I'm not sure how else to describe what model it is.) It responds to the focus knob being turned, and is clean with a contrasty RF patch, but is clearly not calibrated to this lens, so agreed, there's work to do if this camera were to continue to be used with this lens.
Thanks for all the advice, everyone!
--Dave
JohnTF
Veteran
I know about what assumptions do to folks, but I thought if you got the infinity stops in the right place, the RF should work as it focuses to the scale on the body? I have some Graphics with multiple infinity stops, but there I go assuming again?
The school cameras were Speed Graphics, so that is what I learned on, the High School had a Crown, I shot football games, etc. and then was the radical who started using MF and god forbid, a Signet 50. We did a lot of adjusting and work on the Graphics, and I also had a Busch Pressman? 6x9, so we tended to learn a bit about each, mostly trial and error.
Adjusting the RF's took some dexterity and probably a lot of error in the trial and error part, so once adjusted we tended to leave them alone.
As to processing, if we only had a few sheets, we tray processed, in Dk60a, or Dektol-- about one minute in Dektol stock?
Regards, John
The school cameras were Speed Graphics, so that is what I learned on, the High School had a Crown, I shot football games, etc. and then was the radical who started using MF and god forbid, a Signet 50. We did a lot of adjusting and work on the Graphics, and I also had a Busch Pressman? 6x9, so we tended to learn a bit about each, mostly trial and error.
Adjusting the RF's took some dexterity and probably a lot of error in the trial and error part, so once adjusted we tended to leave them alone.
As to processing, if we only had a few sheets, we tray processed, in Dk60a, or Dektol-- about one minute in Dektol stock?
Regards, John
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venchka
Veteran
John,
You are correct. However, I don't see infinity stops for the 90 in the photo above. They could be there. Placing the stops requires drilling and tapping tiny holes in the rails. Not a job for the average person. My Speed has stops for the 127mm lens and the rangefinder works fine. The Linhof has stops at 90mm and 150mm. Focal lengths I don't own. Go figure.
You are correct. However, I don't see infinity stops for the 90 in the photo above. They could be there. Placing the stops requires drilling and tapping tiny holes in the rails. Not a job for the average person. My Speed has stops for the 127mm lens and the rangefinder works fine. The Linhof has stops at 90mm and 150mm. Focal lengths I don't own. Go figure.
bigeye
Well-known
You can measure if it is correct - should be 90mm (3.5") from film plane to lensboard at infinity. Pretty tight.
Another knock: side RFs generally sell for less than the later top RF models.
It's a 'project' camera. Someone who knows what they are doing could put it back together, but a discount applies.
.
Another knock: side RFs generally sell for less than the later top RF models.
It's a 'project' camera. Someone who knows what they are doing could put it back together, but a discount applies.
.
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Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
The infinity stops are just held into the rail with grub screws, no drilling needed. You just unscrew it and slide it along the rail to where it needs to be set. I have a few set up on my SG, each for a different focal length. My RF is only calibrated for 135mm though.
Phil Forrest
JohnTF
Veteran
I thought they were just held in place with a set screw, and you could move the ones on the camera to the correct location, but I never moved mine, perhaps a nice score with a file once the inf. focus was found with the ground glass? I do have one camera with two sets installed.
Regards, John