Spot the flaw in this statement

[Keith]

Dear Keith,

Not really. It's a suggestion that those who don't know what they're talking about (e.g. me and new Land Rovers) are not the best people to advise those who are running the company.

The opinion of someone who knows about Land Rovers' faults, from real experience, is another matter. As is the opinion of someone who actually uses camera A -- whatever camera A may be -- as compared with that of someone who has only ever used camera B.

When was your apprenticeship? I'm told they've got better from hitting rock bottom a few years ago.

Cheers,

R.

I guess I look at it purely from the point of view of a person who had to crawl in and around and under the damned things overhauling transfer cases, clutches, gearboxes hub seals etc. The transmissions were the weak point in my opinion ... the engines were pretty bullet proof and the only thing I constantly remember replacing on the motors was the exhaust manifolds. The dealership always kept hundreds of these in stock because if you drove a hot Landrover into deep cold water a bit quickly it would crack the exhaust manifold as often as not.

A lot of the ones we worked on were off farms (every bloody farmer had one) and they would only bring them in for a service every couple of years or so ... or if the clutch etc had gone. I spent many a happy hour as an apprentice with a hose and screwdriver chiseling mud away from the engines and transmissions, which had usually turned into an unrecognisable lump of hardened earth, so you could actually get at the numerous rusted nuts and bolts to get what you needed out. The cold chisel was my friend here! 😛

I did my apprenticeship between 1967 and 1972 Roger ... and then I was as we say ... ''outa there!'' I'd had more than enough crawling around under things with crap falling in my eyes and I went off and spent the next twenty years working on motorcyles which had always been my real passion!

 

[Al Patterson]

I have bought two second-hand Land Rovers in the last 30 years and am therefore the best person to advise Land Rover on new vehicles.

Leicas, anyone?

(I also have a monthly column in Land Rover World about classic LRs, so obviously I know all there is to know about current models).

(Yeah, right).

Cheers,

R.

There is no flaw in that statement. If there were, there would be no need for Land Rover and Leica forums on the Internet. 😉

 

[gavinlg]

The flaw in this statement is that it's an attempt to ramp up the current argument between the Leica and the non Leica fans here! 🙄

As for Landrovers, I think they're rubbish ... I'm a certified motor mechanic who did a five year apprenticeship in NZ's largest British Leyland dealership and I have no fond memories of working on the hundreds that I did! 😛

Agreed - My friend had a late model defender "extreme" (the hardcore offroad version) which had electrical problems. We were doing some hillclimbs one day, the problem reared it's ugly head halfway up the hill, and cut power to the brakes, motor etc etc. Defender rolled back and rolled over. Just one roll onto the roof made the chassis twist like a banana and the A-pillars were snapped. Not a safe nor a reliable car.

 

[Windscale]

Roger, The only flaw in the statement is that it should never have appeared in RFF. Totally waste of space. More waste of space for those who replied to it (including yours truly)! Classic cars vs Modern cars is very different from Classic cameras vs Modern cameras. And for those who immediately think of Leicas when they hear about LRs, I can say that they have too rich, or too narrow, an imagination. It is like being asked by a Shrink "what is the first thing you can think of when I say ____ ? " I hope, as photographers, we can do one better!

BTW, I have got your RB a long time ago. Enjoyed it very much. Thanks.

 

[Leigh Youdale]

Now We're Getting Somewhere!

Now We're Getting Somewhere!

I went off and spent the next twenty years working on motorcyles which had always been my real passion!

This is getting interesting. Let's move the discussion on to Royal Enfield motorcycles (I nearly brough a Bullet back from India last year) and have Keith and Roger's appreciation of that machine! :

 

[Roger Hicks]

I did my apprenticeship between 1967 and 1972

Derar Keith,

Yup, that really was about rock bottom; the days of Red Robbo at British Leyland.

Point taken about transmissions: I've got to have some work done on mine (you don't fill it with oil, you just pour itthrough, and the speedo drive doesn't work). But I've done well over 100,000 km with it since I bought it in 2002, and it was 30 years old then.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Roger Hicks]

This is getting interesting. Let's move the discussion on to Royal Enfield motorcycles (I nearly brough a Bullet back from India last year) and have Keith and Roger's appreciation of that machine! :

Dear Leigh,

Funny you should say that...

http://www.mctie.com/goodmenu1.html

The site it's taken from -- www.mctie.com or www.motorcycletouringineurope.com -- is currently being updated, illustrated and made all-free (it's currently like www.rogerandfrances.com, part free, part paid). When it's up (insh'Allah by the end of August) it will be part of a larger, more general travel site.

As for the rest of the thread, my main point is that I don't expect peple to take everything I write as ineffable wisdom based on omniscience, even when it is. We all see a partial picture; some of us see more of it than others; and often, it seems, those who see the smallest part of the picture are the ones who are convinced that they know it all.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Roger Hicks]

It seems to me the people Leica should listen to are those who don't own Leicas if Leica wants to ever bring new customers into Leica ownership. Existing customers are true believers and have a bias toward wanting the company to continue on its current course.

By that logic, they should stop making cameras and move into hiking boots, which would introduce them to a completely new market.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Straw man. We weren't talking about hiking boots. We were talking about cameras.

Straw man? Not entirely. Maybe those who buy Leicas, want Leicas, not some other form of camera.

If you prefer, why shouldn't Leica start making wooden 8x10 inch cameras?

Cheers,

R.

 

[Solinar]

It seems to me the people Leica should listen to are those who don't own Leicas if Leica wants to ever bring new customers into Leica ownership. Existing customers are true believers and have a bias toward wanting the company to continue on its current course.

As this thread suggests the divergence between the original cameras that established the brand and what will thrive in a 21st Century market may be two different kettles of fish.

Leitz Wetzlar back in the day didn't fret too much about other camera owners. They did seem to have an ear geared to their own customer base and eventually killed the M3 approach in favor of the M2 through the M6 cameras.

The current Leica Camera AG may do just as you propose, listen to those who don't own Leicas and wind up selling gussied up Panasonic cameras.

 

[kevin m]

Maybe those who buy Leicas, want Leicas, not some other form of camera.

True statement. It remains true even if only one person buys a Leica.

Leica, having heeded the above advice, has gone from being a respected but marginal player in the film camera business to being a slightly less respected and even more marginal player in the digital camera business.

If that's the direction they wish to continue, then they should continue to heed the above advice.

 

[kevin m]

...those who see the smallest part of the picture are the ones who are convinced that they know it all.

It's always THEM, isn't it? A vague, unsubstantiated, THEM! Those b*st*rd children of lazy-thinking must cover the globe by now. 😀

 

[Roger Hicks]

Dear Kevin,

Well, having met Dr. Kaufmann for the first time earlier this month, I have more faith in his vision for the company than I do in yours. Also, of course, the fact that he is a multi-millionaire who all but owns the company outright tends to give his views a certain weight.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Solinar]

By the way as the owner of two aircooled VW's - I may have to stop passing judgement on their current water cooled offerings that seem to be plagued by electrical short comings. My favorite is the lack of a key lock for the rear hatch, which is now controlled by a remote solenoid release that usually fails prematurely.

The trouble with British Leyland was that there too many competing brands within a single organization and incompetent management to deal with a seven headed hydra.

The MG Midget by the late 1970's had become a pig of car, but the worst was the Austin Allegro. To be fair Derrick Robinson did not design this hideous car or any of its components. The trade union leadership may have had a Trotskyist leadership, but like the North American UAW - they built cars designed by non-union university graduates.

A short snippet on who killed BL - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4S5uTBVK6U

 

[Roger Hicks]

It's always THEM, isn't it? A vague, unsubstantiated, THEM! Those b*st*rd children of lazy-thinking must cover the globe by now. 😀

Dear Kevin,

Endeavour to control yourself, dear boy. Presumably you know what you meant; I'm not sure.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Now the trouble with British Leyland was that there too many competing brands within a single organization.

The MG Midget by the late 1970's had become a pig of car, but the worst was the Austin Allegro. To be fair Derrick Robinson did not design this hideous car or any of its components.

The trade union leadership may have had a Trotskyist leadership, but like the North American UAW - they built cars designed by non-union university graduates.

(Split into paras for ease of reply)

For the first assertion, no argument. The '60s/70s mid-engined Rover sports-car, properly made (was it BS6? I forget) would have slaughtered anything else in the BL stable (and anywhere else as well) but competed too much with other vehicles in the line-up, so it was never made. From Google I see that the BS6 name has been revived by the Chinese.

Likewise the second ADO 15?). Ah, the quartic steering wheel! The irreparable box sections in the bodywork!

For the third, isn't 'designed' a rather generous term?

Cheers,

R.

 

[kevin m]

Presumably you know what you meant; I'm not sure.

Sure you do. Inventing a fictional "them" on which to cast aspersions is lazy at best. At worst, it's something else.

 

[Roger Hicks]

The current Leica Camera AG may do just as you propose, listen to those who don't own Leicas and wind up selling gussied up Panasonic cameras.

From talking to them in early July, I strongly doubt it. Thank God!

Cheers,

R.

 

[Solinar]

(Split into paras for ease of reply)

For the third, isn't 'designed' a rather generous term?

True, the different components were more of a cobbled affair.

Also, I found it difficult to choose between the Allegro and the Morris Marina.

 

[kevin m]

...stop expecting it to be what it is not, and enjoy it.

I think it's wonderful the camera exists at all. For my own pleasure, I'd own one in a heartbeat. It's only as a reliable work tool that the camera falls short, and it would be nice if Leica could address those issues.

If that's blasphemy, well, then I'm sorry I stumbled into your church. 😀