cny3123
Established
Hey everyone, was poking around and came across the Bessa R/R2 and other Bessa variants. I was curious what people's opinions are for a good low cost starting kit?
I was thinking of getting a Bessa R2 or R2M with something along the lines of the 35 1.4 or 35 2.5. I already know I like the 35mm FL and think it would be a great start, then later add on a 50 of some sort and maybe a 90, but perhaps not. I was reading the 35 2.5 is a great lens, but I was thinking that the 1.4 is not horribly more expensive, so perhaps it would be good to get the extra 1 1/2 stops or extra in case it is ever needed.
What 50mm would be a recommended choice? I was thinking maybe one of the collapsible 50mm's?
Any thoughts or recommendations? I was thinking an R2 would be a better choice, if I decide I ever want to keep on shooting with rangefinders more, and go with a Leica M series in the future or Leica M mount lenses.
From what I am seeing, the Bessa's are not all that cheap anymore, and brand new they are commanding prices of $600+ Is this worth the money still vs, say a used Leica M4 or M6?
I currently own an Olympus 35SP, and while I like it, I would like a rangefinder with the capability to change around lenses.
Thanks in advance for any help or advice!
I was thinking of getting a Bessa R2 or R2M with something along the lines of the 35 1.4 or 35 2.5. I already know I like the 35mm FL and think it would be a great start, then later add on a 50 of some sort and maybe a 90, but perhaps not. I was reading the 35 2.5 is a great lens, but I was thinking that the 1.4 is not horribly more expensive, so perhaps it would be good to get the extra 1 1/2 stops or extra in case it is ever needed.
What 50mm would be a recommended choice? I was thinking maybe one of the collapsible 50mm's?
Any thoughts or recommendations? I was thinking an R2 would be a better choice, if I decide I ever want to keep on shooting with rangefinders more, and go with a Leica M series in the future or Leica M mount lenses.
From what I am seeing, the Bessa's are not all that cheap anymore, and brand new they are commanding prices of $600+ Is this worth the money still vs, say a used Leica M4 or M6?
I currently own an Olympus 35SP, and while I like it, I would like a rangefinder with the capability to change around lenses.
Thanks in advance for any help or advice!
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
I think I'd be fractionally more inclined to buy a new, metered Bessa rather than a used, unmetered Leica, but it's hard for me to put myself in your place because I've been using Leicas for 40 years. Until I got the MP, though, my R2 got at least as much use as my older, non-metered Leicas.
And a 35/1.4 has been my 'standard' on Leicas for 30 years, so you can guess what I'd say about that, too... The only thing I'd say is, consider a 75 instead of a 50 as your second lens. I find 35/75 perfectly reflects the way I see: 35 for general shots, 75 for details.My 'dream outfit' is my M9 and MP, one with a 35/1.4 and one with a 75/2, swapped around as needed.
Cheers,
R.
And a 35/1.4 has been my 'standard' on Leicas for 30 years, so you can guess what I'd say about that, too... The only thing I'd say is, consider a 75 instead of a 50 as your second lens. I find 35/75 perfectly reflects the way I see: 35 for general shots, 75 for details.My 'dream outfit' is my M9 and MP, one with a 35/1.4 and one with a 75/2, swapped around as needed.
Cheers,
R.
cny3123
Established
Hmm, something to consider, thanks Roger. I personally like having a built in meter, but if need be, I also have a Sekonic L308S for a couple older SLRs that don't have meters.
I was just thinking that since they are so similar in price, it was another option. Especially the M4's.
Another good suggestion with the 75, didn't really think about that. I do know I like a 50mm perspective as well as a 35, but perhaps a 35 and 75 would also be a good compromise, without a need for a third lens for telephoto applications.
Thanks again, and if anyone has any other suggestions it would be greatly appreciated!
I was just thinking that since they are so similar in price, it was another option. Especially the M4's.
Another good suggestion with the 75, didn't really think about that. I do know I like a 50mm perspective as well as a 35, but perhaps a 35 and 75 would also be a good compromise, without a need for a third lens for telephoto applications.
Thanks again, and if anyone has any other suggestions it would be greatly appreciated!
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Chris,
I'm not sure how many hand-held meters I have -- four spot meters, for a start, half a dozen or more Gossens, several Westons, and a few others -- and I'm pretty damn' good at guessing exposures, but the speed and convenience of a built in meter seems especially important to me when I'm using a fast-handling camera without a tripod.
If that sounds like a silly number of meters, it is, but it's over 4 decades of accumulation and around 30 years of writing books and magazine articles about photography. Long ago I lost count of the number of cameras I own.
Cheers,
R.
I'm not sure how many hand-held meters I have -- four spot meters, for a start, half a dozen or more Gossens, several Westons, and a few others -- and I'm pretty damn' good at guessing exposures, but the speed and convenience of a built in meter seems especially important to me when I'm using a fast-handling camera without a tripod.
If that sounds like a silly number of meters, it is, but it's over 4 decades of accumulation and around 30 years of writing books and magazine articles about photography. Long ago I lost count of the number of cameras I own.
Cheers,
R.
BillBingham2
Registered User
How low is low cost? What do you take pictures of / is your style?
While I had two Leica Ms I moved to a Bessa till my children grew up enough I was not worried about accidents. I move back to my Ms but learned a lot about glass and found a lot about my style. Yes Bessas have moved up scale a bit but then they have added a lot of features (different magnification finders) that Leica charges a bit more for. They have a 1:1 and Ultrawide that are not available from Leica.
Without knowing more about you.......
If you want really low cost look at a Bessa L and a CV 25/4 (both black) . It's a great combo that is my favorite street and family camera. It's fast, small and sharp, very sharp.
The Bessa T is overlooked as a slight step up in build quality from the R and L, the same as the R2. It's an M mount but has the longest effective base length of any Bessa rangefinder made these days. Combined with good Bright Line finders (any Bessa, Nikon, Leica and many Canon) makes a very easy to use kit. It's not has handy with a 50 or above as a combined viewfinder/rangefinder but I used it for years and really liked the view I got from many bright lines and sports finders.
Leicas are wonderful cameras but there are many others, some just as good. Help me understand what you do/want to shoot?
B2
While I had two Leica Ms I moved to a Bessa till my children grew up enough I was not worried about accidents. I move back to my Ms but learned a lot about glass and found a lot about my style. Yes Bessas have moved up scale a bit but then they have added a lot of features (different magnification finders) that Leica charges a bit more for. They have a 1:1 and Ultrawide that are not available from Leica.
Without knowing more about you.......
If you want really low cost look at a Bessa L and a CV 25/4 (both black) . It's a great combo that is my favorite street and family camera. It's fast, small and sharp, very sharp.
The Bessa T is overlooked as a slight step up in build quality from the R and L, the same as the R2. It's an M mount but has the longest effective base length of any Bessa rangefinder made these days. Combined with good Bright Line finders (any Bessa, Nikon, Leica and many Canon) makes a very easy to use kit. It's not has handy with a 50 or above as a combined viewfinder/rangefinder but I used it for years and really liked the view I got from many bright lines and sports finders.
Leicas are wonderful cameras but there are many others, some just as good. Help me understand what you do/want to shoot?
B2
Leigh Youdale
Well-known
I think Roger is pretty much on the mark. I have an R3A and R4A.
Your choice of the R2 seems right, given your preference for 35mm FL. I have the Nokton 1.4/40 but also the 2.5/35 CS which I think is adequate and it has the advantage of being smaller and lighter. (I also have the 15/25/50 and 75mm FL's).
If I didn't have that choice and needed another stop I'd push the film speed and develop accordingly.
I'd suggest you get the R2 (either type but the AE is great for fast street work) and whichever 35 you want and experiment for a little while with just that lens and switching the viewfinder frames to see whether you really prefer the field given by the 50 or the 75.
Your choice of the R2 seems right, given your preference for 35mm FL. I have the Nokton 1.4/40 but also the 2.5/35 CS which I think is adequate and it has the advantage of being smaller and lighter. (I also have the 15/25/50 and 75mm FL's).
If I didn't have that choice and needed another stop I'd push the film speed and develop accordingly.
I'd suggest you get the R2 (either type but the AE is great for fast street work) and whichever 35 you want and experiment for a little while with just that lens and switching the viewfinder frames to see whether you really prefer the field given by the 50 or the 75.
cny3123
Established
Hey Bill, thanks for the advice thus far. I would prefer to keep my expenditures as low as possible, though realistically anywhere from $500 - $1000 or so for the RF and lens to start. Adding a 50mm or other lenses can be done later if need be.
I like to shoot people, as well as when traveling, landscapes/cityscapes.
As mentioned earlier I would like to have a 35mm as my main lens, and I believe a 50mm as well. Not sure what else, as far as if I would want wider for a rangefinder, or what telephoto if I decided to go for one.
The other suggestions are interesting as I honestly do not know a whole lot about the Bessa's.
Leigh, thanks for the advice as well. I didn't really think much between the A and M versions of the Bessa, beyond the fact that if I really wanted, the M would work without batteries which I think would be nice just in case.
Thanks for the help so far.
I like to shoot people, as well as when traveling, landscapes/cityscapes.
As mentioned earlier I would like to have a 35mm as my main lens, and I believe a 50mm as well. Not sure what else, as far as if I would want wider for a rangefinder, or what telephoto if I decided to go for one.
The other suggestions are interesting as I honestly do not know a whole lot about the Bessa's.
Leigh, thanks for the advice as well. I didn't really think much between the A and M versions of the Bessa, beyond the fact that if I really wanted, the M would work without batteries which I think would be nice just in case.
Thanks for the help so far.
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BillBingham2
Registered User
Chris,
As Roger mentioned the 35/75 combo is wonderful. My first Leica kit was a 21/35/90. I loved the 35 and the 90, not so much the 21. My last M mount lens kit was a 15/25/40 CV combo and a Nikkor 105/2.5. I found this a great combination of reasonable costs, speed, sharp and flexible. I really became addicted to the CV 25/4 as my main lens for good light, the 40/1.4 for indoors and people when I wanted not distortion anywhere. I had several combination over the years I used them. I developed an approach to building lens systems I call the anchor system. I pick the lens I want to build around, my main lens and then move out from there. With my first Bessa it was a 35/1.7 CV. From there I went to an 85/2 Nikkor, old, heavy but sharp. Then I got a 15/4.5 CV but at the time time a 25/4 CV as it was part of the deal. I found I love the 25 more than the 35 so that became my anchor. I picked up a 40/1.4 to go with the 25 because 35 was too close and a 50 was too far. After the 40 came in I swapped out the 85 for a 105/2.5, same weight but oh she paints light soo well. Then I realized that I really wanted to have something much longer so I started to carry an SLR for long stuff. I realized that the 105 worked much better on an SLR so that became my anchor on my SLR and I carried it and a 300/4.5.
Some people here pick two or three lenses and shoot for many years with that. Other change over time, learning and growing in their own style. Either/Any way that works for you, it's a journey of having fun and learning.
I found the 25/4 a world class lens as it was very low in distortion, sharp and would not flair. I shot family, streets, travel, just about everything with it. These days I am shooting with a fixed lens P&S and loving it. But that is where I am in my journey. There are lots of great glass from CV and Zeiss that was not there when I came back to rangefinders 12 years ago.
Hope this helps.
B2 (;->
As Roger mentioned the 35/75 combo is wonderful. My first Leica kit was a 21/35/90. I loved the 35 and the 90, not so much the 21. My last M mount lens kit was a 15/25/40 CV combo and a Nikkor 105/2.5. I found this a great combination of reasonable costs, speed, sharp and flexible. I really became addicted to the CV 25/4 as my main lens for good light, the 40/1.4 for indoors and people when I wanted not distortion anywhere. I had several combination over the years I used them. I developed an approach to building lens systems I call the anchor system. I pick the lens I want to build around, my main lens and then move out from there. With my first Bessa it was a 35/1.7 CV. From there I went to an 85/2 Nikkor, old, heavy but sharp. Then I got a 15/4.5 CV but at the time time a 25/4 CV as it was part of the deal. I found I love the 25 more than the 35 so that became my anchor. I picked up a 40/1.4 to go with the 25 because 35 was too close and a 50 was too far. After the 40 came in I swapped out the 85 for a 105/2.5, same weight but oh she paints light soo well. Then I realized that I really wanted to have something much longer so I started to carry an SLR for long stuff. I realized that the 105 worked much better on an SLR so that became my anchor on my SLR and I carried it and a 300/4.5.
Some people here pick two or three lenses and shoot for many years with that. Other change over time, learning and growing in their own style. Either/Any way that works for you, it's a journey of having fun and learning.
I found the 25/4 a world class lens as it was very low in distortion, sharp and would not flair. I shot family, streets, travel, just about everything with it. These days I am shooting with a fixed lens P&S and loving it. But that is where I am in my journey. There are lots of great glass from CV and Zeiss that was not there when I came back to rangefinders 12 years ago.
Hope this helps.
B2 (;->
cny3123
Established
Thanks for the help everyone, I will definitely be giving this some more thought, especially since it would appear that the used market for these is fairly slow anyways, and I can look around before making any final decisions anyways.
The sound of a 35 and 75 is definitely intriguing, will have to figure out if 75mm is something I like or not. Also I like the sound of the 25 and 40 though I don't know if I would want wider than 25 or not.
To really be sure that I am going for a kit that I will be happy with, I may mess around with my various equipment I already have and really make sure of what focal lengths I would be happy with.
Any other advice that people have to add will be appreciated, as it may help with a new idea or reaffirm something. Thanks!
The sound of a 35 and 75 is definitely intriguing, will have to figure out if 75mm is something I like or not. Also I like the sound of the 25 and 40 though I don't know if I would want wider than 25 or not.
To really be sure that I am going for a kit that I will be happy with, I may mess around with my various equipment I already have and really make sure of what focal lengths I would be happy with.
Any other advice that people have to add will be appreciated, as it may help with a new idea or reaffirm something. Thanks!
Fujitsu
Well-known
Unless you absolutely love rangefinders just buy any mechanical SLR and set a of vintage prime lenses and you´re done.
There´s a reason why rangefinders do have the low market share they have (you dont see the exact frame, you dont see depth of field, you dont see perspective, you cant get close to your subject, you cant use polarizers, you have to use external viewfinders for wider lenses...) ...
katcons
Established
I just got a Bessa R4M primarily because I like shooting wides. I have a dedicated Canon EOS 50 SLR for teles, but I find the R4M more handy when shooting landscapes and crowds. I was using the Canon 28mm/2.8.
Having a built-in meter is so convenient. I used the Ilford Pan F+ INDOORS and I got some keepers!
I will also be buying the 25/4p Color Skopar for this. Total bill would not exceed $800, and I'm very happy with this setup.
Having a built-in meter is so convenient. I used the Ilford Pan F+ INDOORS and I got some keepers!
I will also be buying the 25/4p Color Skopar for this. Total bill would not exceed $800, and I'm very happy with this setup.
back alley
IMAGES
to keep costs down, think about the cv 40, great lens, fast and cheaper than the 35.
40 plus the 75 is a nice combo.
40 plus the 75 is a nice combo.
Juan Valdenebro
Truth is beauty
I agree about getting the 40 1.4 Nokton... Some shots with the 35 1.4 show more distortion than the 40... Not terrible for every day shooting, but clearly visible sometimes...
The 40 gives you chances to make it look wide or tele, and also gives you room enough to think of a tele someday and a wide / second body later...
I like to use different bodies so I can shoot fast and slow B&W for sun and shadows, and some color too, then I use three bodies and four lenses... Right now there's no gear I want to buy, and I've had not a single problem with what I got... I'm very pleased!
The order I bought my set was 1) Heliar 15 & R4M, 2) Nokton 40 1.4, 3) Bessa T, 4) Leica Summicron 90, 5) Another Bessa T, 6) Color-Skopar 28 3.5
If I were you, I'd get the R3M and the 40 1.4 multicoated...
I've showed these shots with my 40 before:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/40894234@N07/4528669840/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/40894234@N07/4549633224/
I mean it's very useful and sharp at f/1.4...
Cheers,
Juan
The 40 gives you chances to make it look wide or tele, and also gives you room enough to think of a tele someday and a wide / second body later...
I like to use different bodies so I can shoot fast and slow B&W for sun and shadows, and some color too, then I use three bodies and four lenses... Right now there's no gear I want to buy, and I've had not a single problem with what I got... I'm very pleased!
The order I bought my set was 1) Heliar 15 & R4M, 2) Nokton 40 1.4, 3) Bessa T, 4) Leica Summicron 90, 5) Another Bessa T, 6) Color-Skopar 28 3.5
If I were you, I'd get the R3M and the 40 1.4 multicoated...
I've showed these shots with my 40 before:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/40894234@N07/4528669840/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/40894234@N07/4549633224/
I mean it's very useful and sharp at f/1.4...
Cheers,
Juan
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paulfish4570
Veteran
I built a nice little combo with a used Bessa R and Canon 50/1.8 with a total cost of $335. You could make up a nice combo with a 35mm Canon LTM for about the same price. Or go used Bessa R and new CV 35/2.5 for about $500.
Juan Valdenebro
Truth is beauty
M mount bodies seem a better idea, so you can use both mounts lenses...
Cheers,
Juan
Cheers,
Juan
ferider
Veteran
Basically you can shoot almost anything with a 35 and a short tele, be it 75, 85 or 90, the difference is quite small.
For a reasonably fast tele, the R2 has too short of a base-length, and as you said, they are really not that cheap, compared to an M2, for instance.
So, due to the longer base length, I recommend M2, 35 and 90 (because of framelines). For example, 35/1.4 Nokton and a classic 90/2 Summicron or Nikkor 85/2. Or 35/2.5 Color Skopar and 75/2.5 Heliar, used with 90mm adapter to bring the M2 90mm framelines up. Depends all on your budget, and how much speed you really need, of course.
If you don't wear glasses, one thing that also works very well is the R3* with 40 and 75. 40/1.4 Nokton or 40/2 Summicron-C/Rokkor with nice, isolated 75 framelines, say for the 75/2.5 Heliar. The R3* EBL is longer and makes focusing the tele easier, and the 1:1 finder is very nice.
Roland.
For a reasonably fast tele, the R2 has too short of a base-length, and as you said, they are really not that cheap, compared to an M2, for instance.
So, due to the longer base length, I recommend M2, 35 and 90 (because of framelines). For example, 35/1.4 Nokton and a classic 90/2 Summicron or Nikkor 85/2. Or 35/2.5 Color Skopar and 75/2.5 Heliar, used with 90mm adapter to bring the M2 90mm framelines up. Depends all on your budget, and how much speed you really need, of course.
If you don't wear glasses, one thing that also works very well is the R3* with 40 and 75. 40/1.4 Nokton or 40/2 Summicron-C/Rokkor with nice, isolated 75 framelines, say for the 75/2.5 Heliar. The R3* EBL is longer and makes focusing the tele easier, and the 1:1 finder is very nice.
Roland.
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Tompas
Wannabe Künstler
Bessa R3a (or R3m) with Summicron-C 2/40: the Summicron-C is very good and relatively cheap (200 € or less in Germany) and the R3a/m's viewfinder has fitting 40mm frames. The camera should cost even new only half as much as a 10 year old Leica M6 TTL.
Or a Bessa L with Snapshot Skopar 4/25 and viewfinder: you have to guesstimate the distance, but this works astonishingly well, and the whole kit is about 250 € (again, in Germany). This camera is only suited for wide-angles, though.
I have both these setups and am very pleased with them. (The Bessa L has to be loaded with film very carefully, otherwise it 'skips' frames, resulting in double exposures.) Forced to choose between them for an only rangefinder I would take the R3a for it's better allrounder qualities -- I also have 50 and 15mm lenses for it. Hope this helps.
gb hill
Veteran
I think Joe & Juan has hit on something! That 40/1.4 is sweet! Juan those photos esp the one in the church is stunning! If 35-50 are your two fav. focal lengths it makes perfect sense to consider the 40/1.4.
payasam
a.k.a. Mukul Dube
You might start with just a 35 and a 75, Chris, and add more lenses if you feel the need. You may not feel the need.
Juan Valdenebro
Truth is beauty
Thanks a lot, Greg...
I'm really amazed at TMax3200... I metered incident at 1600 at 30 cms. from her head when I walked in, and the metering was 1/60 at f/1.4, and when I set those values on my camera and shot with my R4M set at 3200, the metering was -1... That means shooting at 6400 for wet prints... With Tri-X pushed I never got there...
Cheers,
Juan
I'm really amazed at TMax3200... I metered incident at 1600 at 30 cms. from her head when I walked in, and the metering was 1/60 at f/1.4, and when I set those values on my camera and shot with my R4M set at 3200, the metering was -1... That means shooting at 6400 for wet prints... With Tri-X pushed I never got there...
Cheers,
Juan