Sub-$2000 M8's, what's next?

[__--]

I'm thinking that once an M8 user realizes he's not spending 0.25cents + for developing and scanning a frame, plus a lot of time, they're going to be shooting like an Apache helicopter gunner...

Nah, I think like Eggleston who, when asked why he doesn't bracket, said something like, "It's too difficult to select the best frame".

—Mitch/Pak Nam Pran
Pak Nam Pran

 

[__--]

The M8 is a fantastic image maker, more capable then mostly all of us here. For under 2000 dollars it is an even better image maker now that is more accessible.
If you own one and keep using it and stop worrying about what it's worth you might just end up a better photographer.

True — unless you sell it and use a camera that you like better.

—Mitch/Pak Nam Pran
Barrier Series

 

[jonmanjiro]

I knew that, but my understanding was that in Japan the Corp. ownership is more like a banking interest. For instance, two companies both under Mitsubishi holdings aren't expected to share technology. I think in the US, most technology would be shared among commonly owned groups. True?

p.

I don't think its quite that simple. Especially when members of the Kinyokai (Friday Club) are concerned 😉

 

[PKR]

I don't think its quite that simple. Especially when members of the Kinyokai (Friday Club) are concerned 😉

I don't know the "Friday Club". But it sounds like a lot of people hanging out on a Friday, drinks in hand, exchanging information. I've done a little work in Silicone Valley. There are some very paranoid (with good reason) engineers and scientists guarding stuff they are afraid to patent. Once it's published, it's a free-for-all. Especially where their lawyers can't get to the thieves.
I worked on a project a while ago; we were told that we had 6 months before there would be a pirated product at 1/4 the price on the shelf next to ours. Forget the patent. The project was abandoned after prototype testing. This was a photographic product to be produced in Germany. p.

 

[jonmanjiro]

At the Mitsubishi Group, it's a little more than just hanging out on a Friday afternoon sucking on a few beers. Its pretty much where the deals between core members get done.

Sounds like you have some experience with Japanese companies and business practices, so you probably know that more often than not the deals are done in the "smoking room" rather than the "meeting room".

 

[PKR]

At the Mitsubishi Group, it's a little more than just hanging out on a Friday afternoon sucking on a few beers. Its pretty much where the deals between core members get done.

Sounds like you have some experience with Japanese companies and business practices, so you probably know that more often than not the deals are done in the "smoking room" rather than the "meeting room".

Good morning;

Well, yes. But only one company, and with the Pro photo and Tech. folks. My only connection with business folks in Japan is through friends who are in non photo related businesses. I've watched some ideas go through design cycles here in California and in Japan. If we didn't have to deal with all the legal stuff we could keep pace with our Japanese counterparts. It's become so crazy in the electronics end of things that I see many projects (including my own) being shelved because of projected off-shore duplication. The valley here has so many industrial spies, that the feds have trouble keeping up. Security has become a serious issue. One of my former employees, who has stayed in touch while in her new job, told me her employer has told the upper-end staff that they are not to discuss any company business on a cell phone. I spent 3 days recently securing wireless with the security folks from a maker of processors, for a private demo. These folks were on top of the problem. They had seen past problems. It's cheaper for the competition to steal than to fund R&D. I think the world was always like this, but with the new wireless technology being so easy to compromise and the average user unaware of the problems, and others too lazy to deal with them, it's become a lot easier to lift ideas. I can't tell you the number of times, when working as a photographer, and having a technical background, I've asked a question about some device I was photographing, only to have the head of the design group come in and ask me about my understanding of the "prototype" device. I got a reputation for keeping my mouth shut about "projects". I earn my living with intellectual property and don't like seeing another persons labor being lifted by a lazy thief.

And yes, business is best discussed with friends over a meal or in a pleasant environment where you can speak freely about issues that aren't likely to be addressed at work. I always prefer to do business with someone I know and trust. If things get tough you know, from past experience, what to expect from your business friends.

The shutter speed dial in your avatar brings back memories. I had many of those over the years. I continue to use that gear and have many friends who work for that group.

p.

 

[Turtle]

I remember a discussion on this forum probably less than 3 months ago where certain people declared that there was no way prices would dip below $2400 for clean examples in the next year or so.... There were lots of complex arguments that largely revolved around the points:

Its a Leica dear fellow
The high price of the M9 will ensure that demand for cheaper M8 keeps prices buoyant

I have to say M8 prices have dropped faster than I expected (and I expected them to drop significantly). Its only a problem to those who intend to sell theirs. If you are using it and happy with it... and accepted effectively writing the value off over the years, it matters not a bit. The wonderful photos in frames on the wall will matter though.

 

[dannynono]

Lucky for me the timing of the M8's price drop was in line with a last minute gig = extra money for gear. I wouldn't be surprised to see prices level out for a short while given that it's a pretty tempting camera at 2K (even with it's quirks). I do think the prices between the variations will flatten a bit (M8.2 drop to 3K or just under) and all will drop further as M9s begin to saturate the mkt - new and used.

 

[jaapv]

I remember a discussion on this forum probably less than 3 months ago where certain people declared that there was no way prices would dip below $2400 for clean examples in the next year or so.... There were lots of complex arguments that largely revolved around the points:

Its a Leica dear fellow
The high price of the M9 will ensure that demand for cheaper M8 keeps prices buoyant

I have to say M8 prices have dropped faster than I expected (and I expected them to drop significantly). Its only a problem to those who intend to sell theirs. If you are using it and happy with it... and accepted effectively writing the value off over the years, it matters not a bit. The wonderful photos in frames on the wall will matter though.

Iirc I predicted used prices of 1500-1750 Euro for the M8 and 2000-2500 Euro for the M8.2 with the M8u in between. Seems to be the trend in retrospect 🙂

 

[sanmich]

In this situation, and after reading this thread with much interest, I can't understand why wouldn't leica still manufacture and sell a cheaper, smaller captor "M8" in parallel with a full frame flagship "M9".
Isn't it what all camera makers are doing?

 

[Roger Hicks]

In this situation, and after reading this thread with much interest, I can't understand why wouldn't leica still manufacture and sell a cheaper, smaller captor "M8" in parallel with a full frame flagship "M9".
Isn't it what all camera makers are doing?

Because the price differential wouldn't be big enough.

Because it wouldn't be significantly smaller.

Because the overall market for RF cameras is too small.

Because they can sell more M9s than they can make.

Any argument on its own is compelling.

Cheers,

R.