o_sudar
Newbie
Hello,
I have a rigid 50mm f/2 Summicron in M mount. I've read that the lens head in older lenses of this type could be detached from the mount and focusing helical. It could then be used for close-up photography, e.g. with the SOMKY (SOOKY-M) device and UOORF adapter.
However, try as I might, I couldn't unscrew the lens head. Could it be because my particular lens (serial number 2 269 849) is too new, and not designed to be detached? I wouldn't want to force it and risk damage.
How is the head detached, on lenses designed for it? Do you turn the aperture ring or the front of the lens barrel counter-clockwise (when viewed from the front)?
Thanks in advance for any input,
o_sudar
I have a rigid 50mm f/2 Summicron in M mount. I've read that the lens head in older lenses of this type could be detached from the mount and focusing helical. It could then be used for close-up photography, e.g. with the SOMKY (SOOKY-M) device and UOORF adapter.
However, try as I might, I couldn't unscrew the lens head. Could it be because my particular lens (serial number 2 269 849) is too new, and not designed to be detached? I wouldn't want to force it and risk damage.
How is the head detached, on lenses designed for it? Do you turn the aperture ring or the front of the lens barrel counter-clockwise (when viewed from the front)?
Thanks in advance for any input,
o_sudar
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
When you say "rigid Summicron" do you mean the 1st generation lens after the collapsible or a later 'Cron? The 1st 'cron after the collapsible is identical to the DR Summicron and both of the optics modules will unscrew from the helicoid for use on the Visoflex with adapter. Problem is that they get really tight over the years and you can wind up taking off the knurled front lens element retaining ring off the optics module instead of the whole module. This happened to me once with a user 'Cron. If it happens to you, your aperture index mark may wander off a bit and you'll have to re-tighten the ring to the right spot. That will make the whole optics module tighten down into the helicoid even more. Don't try unscrewing the module by grabbing the aperture ring. There are 3 small grub screws in it which bind the aperture collar to a sleeve underneath which is really what controls the aperture. If you use the aperture ring to attempt to move the module, the grub screws will probably chew their way through the brass sleeve and your aperture will be off from the marking. Then you'll have to take out the grub screws and attempt to get it back to where it's right.
All this applies only if you have the early rigid 'Cron. If you have a 3rd gen lens then you can't do it. Good luck.
Phil Forrest
All this applies only if you have the early rigid 'Cron. If you have a 3rd gen lens then you can't do it. Good luck.
Phil Forrest
o_sudar
Newbie
Hi Phil,
I don't know exactly which generation of Summicron I have. That's why I've included its serial number above. If Ken Rockwell (http://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/lens-serial-numbers.htm) is a reliable source, then this lens was made in 1968. Which generation does this make it?
Thanks, o_sudar
I don't know exactly which generation of Summicron I have. That's why I've included its serial number above. If Ken Rockwell (http://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/lens-serial-numbers.htm) is a reliable source, then this lens was made in 1968. Which generation does this make it?
Thanks, o_sudar
Erik van Straten
Veteran
If it's chrome, it is the first generation rigid, if it's black, it is the second. The lens head of the black lens will not unscrew.
Erik.
Erik.
o_sudar
Newbie
Thanks. The lens is black, not chrome. Comparing it to the images and serial numbers in LeicaWiki, it appears to be 2nd generation (http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/Summicron_(II)_f=_5_cm_1:2), not 1st generation (http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/Summicron_(I)_f=_5_cm_1:2). So I guess I'm out of luck... 
Erik van Straten
Veteran
Well, it depends on your likings. Your lens will focus to 70 cm without any accessory.
Erik.
Erik.
Lflex
Lflex
Thanks. The lens is black, not chrome. Comparing it to the images and serial numbers in LeicaWiki, it appears to be 2nd generation (http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/Summicron_(II)_f=_5_cm_1:2), not 1st generation (http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/Summicron_(I)_f=_5_cm_1:2). So I guess I'm out of luck...
Mostly everybody else counts the collapsible as first gen. Rigid/DR as second and yours as third.
The third is a very nice lens by the way.
o_sudar
Newbie
Erik, Lx: I'm certainly not complaining - I'm sure the Summicron's performance increased with each generation (although I did see my lens's tendency to flare when shot against the light). It's just that even at the minimum focus distance, the area it covers is not really small enough for a tight head shot, especially of a child or a baby. I realize 50mm is not the ideal focal length for portraits; I also have a 90mm lens, but it too covers almost the same area at its closest distance.
I'm thinking about using screw-on close-up lenses ("filters"). For focusing and framing, I'll use one of those close-up rangefinders that Kodak made for the Retina cameras, which are parallax compensated and calibrated for +1, +2 and +3 diopter close-up lenses. The framing might be a little off because the distance between the lens and the accessory shoe may be different in the Retina then in the Leica; but the focus should be OK, because both are 50mm lenses. Wish me luck!
Ulrich: I tried what you suggested, and it doesn't work. Is your advice based on personal experience, or is there some source you can quote?
Thanks, o_sudar
I'm thinking about using screw-on close-up lenses ("filters"). For focusing and framing, I'll use one of those close-up rangefinders that Kodak made for the Retina cameras, which are parallax compensated and calibrated for +1, +2 and +3 diopter close-up lenses. The framing might be a little off because the distance between the lens and the accessory shoe may be different in the Retina then in the Leica; but the focus should be OK, because both are 50mm lenses. Wish me luck!
Ulrich: I tried what you suggested, and it doesn't work. Is your advice based on personal experience, or is there some source you can quote?
Thanks, o_sudar
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
Your lens optics module is not removable like the rigid chrome (or the rarer black paint which yours is not) and DR Summicron. Those are the only two.
Good luck with the close up diopters. Might be time for a 75mm lens or you could get a DR 'Cron and get to within 20" of your subject with accurate framing and focusing.
Phil Forrest
Good luck with the close up diopters. Might be time for a 75mm lens or you could get a DR 'Cron and get to within 20" of your subject with accurate framing and focusing.
Phil Forrest
o_sudar
Newbie
Ulrich: What you say contradicts what Erik and Phil say. I'll try it again, but gently; I don't want to force it and risk damaging the lens.
Phil: Good suggestion, but since I already have 50mm and 90mm lenses, I couldn't justify getting a 75mm. I also wouldn't want to trade my equipment, e.g. selling my 50mm and getting a DR version. This is mostly for sentimental reasons (it belonged to my father).
Phil: Good suggestion, but since I already have 50mm and 90mm lenses, I couldn't justify getting a 75mm. I also wouldn't want to trade my equipment, e.g. selling my 50mm and getting a DR version. This is mostly for sentimental reasons (it belonged to my father).
Sparrow
Veteran
... the front bit comes off this one if it's like this
Ronald M
Veteran
The version 3, 1969 to 1979. will unscrew just like the Rigid. Mine took lots of force the first time, maybe 1990. I did not buy it new. There are only black ones.
There is some possibility of corrosion in the threads making it impossible to do at this time or it is just put on really tight at the factory. I assure you, it is made to come off.
If you do get it off, it works better than the rigid version.
There is some possibility of corrosion in the threads making it impossible to do at this time or it is just put on really tight at the factory. I assure you, it is made to come off.
If you do get it off, it works better than the rigid version.
rporonga
Newbie
Reviving an old thread. I run into the problem described above when trying to unscrew the optics module. I ended up loosening the knurled front part with the aperture index dot.
How can I unscrew the optics module from the focusing base?
Ronald M
Veteran
All rigid heads unscrew, The black 1969 to 79 heads unscrew. Mine came off with great difficulty. I believe the DR heads unscrew, 99 % sure.
The 1969 has the flattest field for close work. Also is a decent enlarging lens for 16X prints and up. Special adapter needed.
If yours is tight, head the advice above. I think they freeze over the years.
The 1969 has the flattest field for close work. Also is a decent enlarging lens for 16X prints and up. Special adapter needed.
If yours is tight, head the advice above. I think they freeze over the years.
rporonga
Newbie
Thanks for the reply. I know it is supposed to unscrew. But how do I unscrew it when the knurled part that I am grabbing to unscrew it comes off on its own? I did not see any advice above, except for the suggestion of being careful of not damaging the aperture ring.
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
This is for a chrome rigid Summicron. Non-DR.
This is for a chrome rigid Summicron. Non-DR.
You might have to send the lens to Youxin, Sherry or DAG to get it done properly.
If this is a V2 Rigid Summicron, you can do this. If it is a DR o later lens, disregard what is written below and just send it in for repair.
If you are mechanically handy and aren't afraid to get in there then you can do some work yourself but you could risk really making the lens stiffer by attempting to remove the optical module from the rear. If you decide to do that, make sure you have the right weight lube for the collar which you'll remove from the helicoid before you begin. Don't worry, it's cake compared to taking apart something like an 85mm f/1.4 AIS Nikkor's helicoid that was soaked in orange juice over a decade prior.
First, screw the front ring/element back into the optical module. They don't have to be tight, you just need some more surface to grip and don't want to use the aperture collar as your gripping surface.
Make sure you mark things with sharpies, paint pens, scratch awls or whatever you use to ensure you put these pieces back together exactly as you found them.
Take a sharp, properly sized spanner and remove the locking ring from the rear of the lens. This ring is circumferential to the rear element which is inset a few millimeters. Unscrew the locking ring and then very carefully pull the remaining optical module STRAIGHT OUT of the helicoid. If you do this on an angle, you can score the brass follower/collar and your lens will work but it won't feel as smooth as before.
Unscrew the grub screws which hold the aperture ring to the body and slide it off towards the rear. If you can't get it all the way off, you're going to have to make due. Set the screws aside, maybe on a magnet, so they don't get lost.
Next, you're going to want to measure the diameter of the part that the front ring screws onto (so you'll have to take it off once again.) After you've measured this, go to a hardware store and find a close PVC or ABS inner diameter size. Buy a foot or so of it but you only need about 4-6 inches. You want this to fit around the thread with only 1-2mm gap total. You may need to sand down the outside to give it a bit of a bevel so it can fit between the aperture control ring and the brass core you're trying to unscrew.
Then get a piece of thin bicycle inner tube and cut it so it generously covers the front threaded portion that the pipe is going to fit around.
If you got the aperture control ring completely off then stick the whole optical module back into the helicoid and hand tighten the spanner. If your aperture control ring had a lip on the inside that prevented you from removing it completely, slide it as far back as you can and then stick the inner tube on the front end of the lens, then the pipe over the inner tube THEN seat it into the helicoid. You may need an extra set of hands for this.
Anyway, once you get the brass follower into the helicoid, push and twist till your hands get blistered (happened to me) and until you loosen the lens. You can stick the pipe into a vise, of course (recommended) but then watch out how much force you're putting on it in case the pipe is stressed too much or your grip slips, you don't want to jam the rest of the summicron into the vise.
Once you get it loose, clean all the parts well, lightly lube the parts that move including the thread that the optical module screws into. Clean the front ring well and do not lube it before reassembling. Then all you have to do is put it back together. You should have: optical module, brass follower that slides into the helicoid, rear locking ring. That's it after you've put the aperture control ring and the front ring back on.
It may sound daunting but it's quite simple. I had to work on my DR Summicron with a vise, channel locks, a file and Swiss Army knife after it was dropped onto a marble floor in one of Saddam Hussein's military base support buildings back in 2004. That lens had a looking over by Sherry K. but she said that there was little she could do but clean the dust and haze out since the mount was fine.
Good luck!
Phil Forrest
This is for a chrome rigid Summicron. Non-DR.
You might have to send the lens to Youxin, Sherry or DAG to get it done properly.
If this is a V2 Rigid Summicron, you can do this. If it is a DR o later lens, disregard what is written below and just send it in for repair.
If you are mechanically handy and aren't afraid to get in there then you can do some work yourself but you could risk really making the lens stiffer by attempting to remove the optical module from the rear. If you decide to do that, make sure you have the right weight lube for the collar which you'll remove from the helicoid before you begin. Don't worry, it's cake compared to taking apart something like an 85mm f/1.4 AIS Nikkor's helicoid that was soaked in orange juice over a decade prior.
First, screw the front ring/element back into the optical module. They don't have to be tight, you just need some more surface to grip and don't want to use the aperture collar as your gripping surface.
Make sure you mark things with sharpies, paint pens, scratch awls or whatever you use to ensure you put these pieces back together exactly as you found them.
Take a sharp, properly sized spanner and remove the locking ring from the rear of the lens. This ring is circumferential to the rear element which is inset a few millimeters. Unscrew the locking ring and then very carefully pull the remaining optical module STRAIGHT OUT of the helicoid. If you do this on an angle, you can score the brass follower/collar and your lens will work but it won't feel as smooth as before.
Unscrew the grub screws which hold the aperture ring to the body and slide it off towards the rear. If you can't get it all the way off, you're going to have to make due. Set the screws aside, maybe on a magnet, so they don't get lost.
Next, you're going to want to measure the diameter of the part that the front ring screws onto (so you'll have to take it off once again.) After you've measured this, go to a hardware store and find a close PVC or ABS inner diameter size. Buy a foot or so of it but you only need about 4-6 inches. You want this to fit around the thread with only 1-2mm gap total. You may need to sand down the outside to give it a bit of a bevel so it can fit between the aperture control ring and the brass core you're trying to unscrew.
Then get a piece of thin bicycle inner tube and cut it so it generously covers the front threaded portion that the pipe is going to fit around.
If you got the aperture control ring completely off then stick the whole optical module back into the helicoid and hand tighten the spanner. If your aperture control ring had a lip on the inside that prevented you from removing it completely, slide it as far back as you can and then stick the inner tube on the front end of the lens, then the pipe over the inner tube THEN seat it into the helicoid. You may need an extra set of hands for this.
Anyway, once you get the brass follower into the helicoid, push and twist till your hands get blistered (happened to me) and until you loosen the lens. You can stick the pipe into a vise, of course (recommended) but then watch out how much force you're putting on it in case the pipe is stressed too much or your grip slips, you don't want to jam the rest of the summicron into the vise.
Once you get it loose, clean all the parts well, lightly lube the parts that move including the thread that the optical module screws into. Clean the front ring well and do not lube it before reassembling. Then all you have to do is put it back together. You should have: optical module, brass follower that slides into the helicoid, rear locking ring. That's it after you've put the aperture control ring and the front ring back on.
It may sound daunting but it's quite simple. I had to work on my DR Summicron with a vise, channel locks, a file and Swiss Army knife after it was dropped onto a marble floor in one of Saddam Hussein's military base support buildings back in 2004. That lens had a looking over by Sherry K. but she said that there was little she could do but clean the dust and haze out since the mount was fine.
Good luck!
Phil Forrest
rporonga
Newbie
Thank you so much Phil for such a detailed explanation. I am not sure I am up to this task, though. I think this lens will need a CLA at some point, and I hope that it gets properly "unstuck" during the CLA.