summicron 90 f2 VS voigtlander 90 f3.5

georgef

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Decisions, decisions...😱

I am debating between the voigt 90 and the summicron 90 f2 and was wondering if anyone here has used both? I am looking for sharpness in the open end on both. How does the cron compare to the highly regarded voigt? I have heard mixed views, but none comparing it to the voigt.

I think the cron is a type 2 (going by its serial no).
thanks in advance
george
 
I love the Cron. I have the canadian pre-asph and it's a beautiful lens and sharp. F2 surely beats a lousy f3,5, no matter how good the VC can be it's still a f3.5. Yuk (IMO)

I'm selling my Cron, replacing it with a 'lux 75.l
 
Neither are as sharp as the 90mm/2.8 Elmarit-M.

On pnet I'm selling a 90mm Summicron and 90mm Minolta-Rokkor (made at Wetzler Leica). Both ecx cond. check it out.

Paul
 
The Summicron can result in very special looking portraits. I have the old version with built-in hood [made in Canada]. Other excellent lenses are the Nikkor 85mm/2.0, the Canon 85mm/1.9 or 1.8, the Elmarit 90mm/2.8, ... etc.

Raid
 
35mmdelux said:
Neither are as sharp as the 90mm/2.8 Elmarit-M.

On pnet I'm selling a 90mm Summicron and 90mm Minolta-Rokkor (made at Wetzler Leica). Both ecx cond. check it out.

Paul

How sharp is Elmarit 90/2.8 at 2.0? wink wink 😉😛
But seriously, If price is not an issue, I'd go by weight. CV lens is lighter and more likely to be taken with you when you go out to shoot. But if you need the fastest lens - well, there is your answer. I try (not always works) to look past price and but lens' functionality for me - speed, handling, etc. I had a CV 90/3.5 a while back. Good lens. Light. Was too slow for my liking. Have a Nikon LTM 85/2.0 and J-9 now and pretty happy with that set up for a long end. I may even sell Nikon, actually.
 
The old version 90 summicron pre asph isn't particularly sharp at f2 or even 2.8. I read in the LHSA magazine that the lat non asph isn't much better. The new asph is very good at f2 at distances greater than 8-10 ft but soft close up even stopped down. The original 90 2.8 Elmarit v1 is excellent and I would suspect the CV to be much like the old Elmarit.
 
How can you compare a 2.0 lens against a 3.5 lens? The DOF will be quite different wide open, so will the size and weight of the lens.
 
I can't speak for the CV 90/3.5 but can tell you as a former owner of the pre-asph. Summicron that the resolution wide open is excellent and not too far behind the 90/2 AA! The only significant difference is slightly better edge and corner sharpness with a little bit more contrast and color saturation. The 90/2 AA reaches it's peak between f/2.8 - f/4 and the pre-asph. by f/4, basically a gain of one stop in sharpness. I would expect the CV 90/3.5 to equal but not exceed the Summicron at similar apertures but the build quality of the Summicron will allow it to take more abuse without affecting performance.
 
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somewhere in the archives I posted a comparison of four 90's, the 90/2 and the 90/3.5 included. I think they have a similar look, but I think the 3.5 might be sharper(?).


🙂
 
If all you're looking for in a lens is wide-open sharpness (ie you don't care about size, weight, handling, filter thread size, DOF, bokeh, character, price etc), The recent Erwin Puts comment about lens reviews is particularly insightful.

I quote below:

"The case of the 75mm lenses

A recent review of the Leica and Cosina 75mm lenses may illustrate these points. Both lenses have been extensively tested and reviewed all over the internet and in many printed publications, and MTF graphs are available too. One may ask what is the added value of the constant repetition of known facts. In this context I am always reminded of one of the classical stories of Donald Duck: Duck is asking money from a rich foundation to discover America. The obvious reply is that America has already been discovered, and the answer by Duck is: yes, but not yet by me.

The general conclusion from the review: both lenses perform quite well and are of comparable quality is nothing new and the more impressionistic comments depend heavily on the particular choices in the imaging and viewing chain.

I have on my desk the measured results of the two lenses, Leica and Cosina. Here we have facts that have been collected for the lenses without any additional components from the imaging chain and are representative for the intrinsic quality of the lenses. The field of view corresponds to the normal 24x36mm frame and is not restricted to the smaller angle of view when one uses results that relate to the smaller M8 or Epson sensor. These results neglect the important outer parts of the capture area on the negative area as used in film-loading cameras like the M6 or M7 or MP. Comparing the MTF graphs we note that in the centre of the image and wide open both lenses perform equally well, but when looking at the outer zones there is a significant difference in correction philosophy. Leica has opted for a higher contrast, but allows more curvature of field and more astigmatism, where Cosina goes for lower contrast and less astigmatism. This correction philosophy has impact on the out of focus (bo keh) character of the lens. It is also intriguing to see that the Cosina designer has opted for a higher contrast in the sagittal direction, where the Leica designer has selected the tangential direction to be of higher contrast. The main differences between both lenses in this area of definition can be found in the 40 lp/mm of resolution. Most photographers have difficulties to find scenes where this level of definition can be captured. In itself this is interesting, but one needs to know that the higher resolutions are not only needed for the definition of fine detail, but also for better edge contrast at the lower frequencies.

The bigger differences between the two lenses are in the area of chromatic correction, where the Leica can show a much better apo-like correction. The performance of the Leica in the wavelength range of 400 to 500 micron is much better (by a factor of three). The upshot is that pictures taken with the Leica lens in scenes with a dominant blue light have a significantly higher contrast.

The illumination of the full image circle (radius 22mm) is quite even in the case of the Leica lens and worse in the case of the Cosina lens. You do not only note that in the amount of vignetting at the corners: the Leica at 2.8 is much better than the Cosina at 2.8 (difference is more than one stop). The illumination differences between Leica and Cosina at full aperture do present themselves in a hot spot in the centre of the image for the Cosina where the Leica has not such a spot. Transmission measurements also indicate that the Cosina is in effect closer to a true full aperture of 2.8 and not 2.5.

On a more practical level we may say that the actual comparison between both lenses is between a 2/75 and a 2.8/75. Then the performance advantages of the Leica lens are more impressive as a 2.8 lens is much simpler to correct to a high level of performance.

The Cosina lens exhibits a higher level of focus shift than the Leica lens. The focus shift for the Cosina lens is within the 0.03mm CoC tolerance area, but when one wants to have high magnification prints, the focus shift could become visible.

Upshot

At an aperture of f/4 both lenses perform visually equally well and that is what most reviewers will conclude. But such a conclusion can be made for most high quality lenses, especially in the realm of the M-bayonet lenses: lens design here has a long history and with modern design tools one can create good designs without much trouble. The step from a good to a superb design is not so easy, but then the naked eye might not be the best tool to detect the fine differences. The eye as an instrument for measurement is notoriously weak and one needs additional equipment to supplement and correct the conclusions of the eye. There is a dividing line between the seen and unseen and the eye is not good at detecting things one is not aware of. That is the basic but important conclusion of lens comparisons by the eye only: you see what you want to see and what you want to see is also influenced by the way one has configured the imaging and viewing chain.

You cannot rely on MTF measurements alone, and certainly not on one figure merit values (this lens has a score of 78.3 and that lens has a score of 80.1), but also not on personal impressions.

Lens testing such that reliable and representative conclusions can be drawn, is a complicated and time-consuming process. Without sophisticated equipment to back up the visual assessment of printed pictures (not screen analysis) lens reviews are of limited value when one wants to get a valid assessment of the intrinsic lens qualities. "
 
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waileong said:
How can you compare a 2.0 lens against a 3.5 lens? The DOF will be quite different wide open, so will the size and weight of the lens.

Indeed. Comparing these two is like pitting a Camaro against a bologna sandwich. They have totally different sizes, weights, optical characteristics, strengths and weaknesses...

It's not one you asked about, but as I'm not the first to sing it's praises, the Elmarit-M IS the sharpest 90mm lens I care to own, and it's smaller and lighter than the f2 lenses. For me the only point of 35mm is having a small, light-weight and portable kit. If I'm want to carry a lot, I'll carry something than makes much bigger negatives. Besides, I've yet to find myself in a situation where one stop either way really made the difference between getting the picture and not. You can always push film, brace cameras, find or make more light, etc.
 
I must confess to lusting after the 90mm Summicron and have often been tempted to buy one, a temptation which to now, I have resisted. I think I just have a thing for big and bulky lenses. But apart from my fetish, it does have a good reputation when stopped down and have a reputation of being a little soft (not a bad thing in all circumstances) when wide open.

I do have an Elmarit 90mm f 2.8 dating to around the early 1960s and can attest to its performance. It is not all that much cheaper than the Summicron to buy (in Australia a good Elmarit seems to go for a little under 1k and a Summi a little over last time I looked which was admittedly a couple of years back) perhaps because of the Summi's much larger size / weight and slightly poorer performance, but if you can get the Elmarit it is a beautiful lens both optically and mechanically
 
WOA thanks for the repsponses guys!

OK, since reading your posts i decided to try both 90s. Before I get to the results I got, here are a couple of explanations I guess I did not make clear in my original email😱 :
1.I would (and did) compare them both at the largest ap each, and at 3.5
2. Size, weight, thread, mount, colour and scratches are irrelevant to their respective sharpness, which was the main question I was concerned with. Lens-to-Lens optical comparison at each lens's wide ap was my interest, as I shoot mainly handheld and under available light; sorry if I did not make that clear.
3. the other reason I was considering these particular lenses is because I can get either of them at around the same price through a local sale. so money was not an issue either.

I only shoot with a digital RD-1 and will not return to film in this lifetime; I have learned from years of using crop sensors that one of the digital pluses is using the better part of lenses; therefore edge to edge sharpness is also not a main issue.

...I got hold of both samples; the voigt new, and the cron used but with no visible issues whatsoever; Having said that, after trying both lenses for about 30-40 shots each, my conclusion is that the voigt surpassed the cron in every single shot! it gave sharper results, nice colour and bokeh. Please note: I shot the cron both at f.2 and f.3.5 but only compared the 3.5 shots to the voigt.
The truth is the cron obviously exhibits more pronounced bokeh at f.2, but on my RD1 with its narrow focusing base it was harder to focus accurately.

So al in all, I decided to go for the voigt, but after all your comments, I will be keeping an eye out for an elmarit to try in the future.

Thanks again for all the input....uploading images here seems to be a hit and miss from my remote dial-in service here, so try as I might I have not been able to send respective photos without my laptop hanging...but that's a discussion for the PC VS MAC board😀

thanks and keep very well.George
 
Probably a wise choice. Fast lenses are heavy and I prefer to carry light.

That said, I. Putts put up a sample test of RD1 and M8 resolution. The clear winner was the M8.

That tells me you can`t test resolution with an inferior sensor. But if that is all you will ever use, it does not matter. Kind of like saying all I ever use is tri x, so even if one tests better on T Max 100, does not matter.

The RF base is too short for a 90 2.0 anyway.

The last two generations of 90 2.0 have issues in close focus range. This is perhaps where you would want 2.0 to isolate a subject.

So it is heavy, loses resolution under 6 feet, and can`t focus with the short base RF, so what value is it to YOU.

Made the correct choice! Congratulations.
 
If I knew that you use RD1, I'd say VC 90/3.5 from the get go. Its the same as Bessa R, just digital, so with that lil dinky RF base any faster long lens is useless, as you found out. So, at that rate I'd look into Elmar -C - it's 90/4, but delivers much better results that CV lens from what I have seen.
But anyway, enjoy your new lens.
 
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