carbo73
Well-known
A question about winter exposure. I'm going to use a Kodak Retina in the snow. The sunny 16 rules that in snow aperture should be f22. But what about the sky. Its f22 with cloudy snow landscape that sunny snow landscape?
michaelwj
----------------
I’m not sure I understand. Sunny 16 is sunny 16. At higher altitudes with clear skies it is likely to be sunny 22. The snow, which is blindingly white, will be rendered blindingly white. If that’s not what you want, then adjust as desired.
carbo73
Well-known
I does not have the luxury to adjust. I'm going to a trip to Norway with just three or four 35mm casettes and probably no meter. I will develop the films at home so I must be as close to the right aperture as possible.
But for example, in a very cloudy day in the snow surely there's much less light than in the sun. Then I asume it's not f22. Maybe just ad +1 aperture to sunny 16 when there's snow? So in a misty or winter sun it should be f16, in clous f11 and in heavy clouds f8. Right?
Dan Daniel
Well-known
I think you'll do fine with this. Add one stop. It's what I am finding here with the winter snows. Including on overcast days- the snow seems to act as a reflector increasing light levels everywhere.
Many phones can have metering apps installed. Be careful- precision varies, angle of view can be erratic, etc.
And then a great discussion of learning to set exposure without a meter here. Although he refers to nature photography, I take that to mean 'anyplace out of the studio' and it works well-
http://www.fredparker.com/ultexp1.htm
Karlovak
Established
To further complicate things, where I live, in autumn, winter, and spring, Sunny 16 is more like Sunny 11. In snowy cloudy, snowy overcast or with low altitude sun snowy, I overexpose +1 stop to fight the blue cast or to pop the snow.
Like Michael said, with high altidude sun on a very bright and snowy day, for instance in the mountains, one might use f22, but I think you'd be safe with f16.
For what it's worth, I'm often shooting f4 or f5,6 in the winter.
Like Michael said, with high altidude sun on a very bright and snowy day, for instance in the mountains, one might use f22, but I think you'd be safe with f16.
For what it's worth, I'm often shooting f4 or f5,6 in the winter.
DominikDUK
Well-known
The standard rules still apply snow is white not 18% grey so if you want white snow use f16 and the shutter speed that corresponds to the light conditions overcast, cloudy, sunny, etc.... Yes snow reflects light but the one stop difference is something that any negative film can handle, also snow can only reflect existing light, that's why I would use the Fstop speed combination that applies to lighting conditions (sky), overexposing is better than underexposing.
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
I underlined an important point: maybe you won't have the direct light on which Sunny 16 is based. So do bring the meter.
I would think twice about stopping down very much. Underexposure will make the snow look like mud. I know, I did it once, even though I knew better.
carbo73
Well-known
Thanks to all for your answers. I'll try to meter with a mobile app or some other external meter, at least as a guide. And as basic rule, overexpose 1 stop to the sunny 16 rule.
Vince Lupo
Whatever
I'd be doing more like 2 stops -- as others have mentioned, if you were to be using a reflected light meter, that meter would want to turn that white snow into middle grey. So to bring it back to textured white, you might consider opening up by 2 stops (or bracketing at the very least). If you're shooting and developing your own film, you might also want to moderate your development time to keep those highlights in check.
If you're concerned about being as close to proper exposure as possible, bring along a cheap incident light meter. Gossen Luna Pros can be had on eBay for as low as $15.
raid
Dad Photographer
The Sunny 16 Rule is designed to give you a perfect grey. Snow is white, and you most likely do not want to get grey looking snow, so you increase the exposure a little to get white snow. The blue sky will stay blue after a one stop extra exposure. In the end, you need to balance between several objects or target areas within your frame, and you sometimes will manage to get all target areas "perfectly" exposed, and sometimes you have to make choices.
There was a really good text on tricky exposures that I went over many many times about 25 years ago. It had (as an example) a scene with blue sky and white snow and a red squirrel. How would you expose the squirrel?
There was a really good text on tricky exposures that I went over many many times about 25 years ago. It had (as an example) a scene with blue sky and white snow and a red squirrel. How would you expose the squirrel?
Ccoppola82
Well-known
With BW film, couldn’t you just increase development by about 20% to push the snow up a zone or so?
BernardL
Well-known
Confusing and potentially catastrophic advice given to OP.
YES you need to over expose wrt to an average meter reading on a snow-dominated scene;
NO you should not overexpose by one or (shudder) two stops wrt the sunny-16 rule. Doing so would lead to (ISO 100 film) 1/125 f/8. While the film-maker recommendation for snow scenes, on the little paper that used to be inside film boxes, was 1/125 f/22.
Bottom line:
- Predominantly sunlit snow scene: sunny 22, i.e. shutter = 1/ISO, diaphragm f/22. Just what the Yellow Man recommended after taking many pictures under various conditions and having panels of viewers evaluate them.
- Mixed snow scene: meter snow in open shadow, and close diaphragm by one stop (Z.IV placement).
BernardL
Well-known
More confusing advice. Sunny 16 is meant to give proper exposure in some well-defined, frequently encountered situations. It is based on the expected lighting level. So, with (say) thinly veiled sun, "sunny 16" mandates shutter 1/ISO, diaphragm f/11. Picture a middle-grey subject, you get a middle grey placement on the negative. Picture a snow scene, same exposure, snow is brighter, film receives more light, is denser after development, and corresponding paper image is lighter.
BernardL
Well-known
Are you sure??? That is a N+1 development, normally used for flat scenes
raid
Dad Photographer
I know this. This is not confusing. It is straightforward.
Vince Lupo
Whatever
Shuddering not required -- all depends on what kind of meter you're using and where you're pointing it. If you're using a reflected light meter, and you're pointing it at an area that's predominantly snow-covered in bright sunlight, that meter is going to tell you to close down that aperture, essentially make that snow middle grey. You want to put that snow back in its place? Open that aperture up 2 stops. Snow should be around Zone VII-VIII (depending if it's in sun or not), snow in open shadows should be about VI. And if you're shooting black and white (and you're developing the film yourself), you can back off on the development to keep those highlights in check. Don't forget -- expose for the shadows, develop for the highlights. You could also use an incident meter and you shouldn't have to compensate (generally!).
Buddha of the North Country by Vince Lupo, on Flickr
Buddha of the North Country by Vince Lupo, on Flickr
raid
Dad Photographer
... what Vince has said 
I used a spotmeter with transparency color film, so exposure may be different here and there when compared with B&W print film.
I used a spotmeter with transparency color film, so exposure may be different here and there when compared with B&W print film.
retinax
Well-known
I also depends on how you want the scene to look. Vince's picture above shows the texture in the snow wonderfully, however for a whole landscape with snow I'd want at least a stop more exposure.
My eyes perceive it like that, when looking at a landscape with snow as well as snowless trees, buildings etc, the snow simply looks white. When looking at the texture of the snow, shadows etc, one notices that the snow can also be dark. Exposre decisions should reflect this.
My eyes perceive it like that, when looking at a landscape with snow as well as snowless trees, buildings etc, the snow simply looks white. When looking at the texture of the snow, shadows etc, one notices that the snow can also be dark. Exposre decisions should reflect this.
Vince Lupo
Whatever
I guess you could do that to bring the highlights up, but if you're underexposing the film by say, 1.5 - 2 stops (at least as the meter is reading the scene), then your shadows will suffer. So underexposing and then over developing would likely lead to contrasty negs. Almost like you're pushing the film.
BernardL
Well-known
The whole thread in general, and the first of the two quotations I copied, were about the Sunny (11, 16, 22) rule. I thought I had spelt that out clearly enough in the sentence starting with "NO", where "sunny 16" is even boldfaced for the sake of speed readers.
No meter involved, so it cannot depend on the meter used. With this restated, I repeat that overexposing a snow scene by 1 or 2 stops wrt to sunny16 is... [pauses to remain politically correct] ...conterproductive.
And, if you think about it for one second, "sunny 16" (or whatever) is more or less incident light metering... without a meter. So your remark
just concurs with what I had stated.