Sunny 16 Rule Question

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ash13brook

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I'm not sure why I'm agonizing over this at this point in my life.
I've been using a little chart made for 400 speed film in place of a meter for a long time. I even used it to shoot Kodachrome 200 at night.
It starts out at Sunny 16 - f16 @ 1/500 and works down from that.
I've never had a single problem with that. But, now, I'm wondering...
In reality, isn't that underexposing just a little bit? Would I get a better result by starting at f16 @ 1/250 for 400 speed film? I don't imagine I'll ever make wet prints from the negatives. Only scans and maybe work prints from them. If I decided I needed a"wall hanger", I'd send it out to be printed.

Thanks,
Matt
 
ash13brook said:
It starts out at Sunny 16 - f16 @ 1/500 and works down from that.

In reality, isn't that underexposing just a little bit? Would I get a better result by starting at f16 @ 1/250 for 400 speed film?
Click to expand...

Yes, f16 at 1/500th is a little bit of an underexposure. But 1/250th would be an overexposure.

I think on a vintage camera, the likelihood of it being right on the money at 1/500th is slim. So you might be looking at something clser to 1/400th anyway...
 
Using a 400 speed film and applying the Sunny 16 rule, technically speaking a 1/500 shutter speed would be underexposing a bit indeed. Instead of f16, I would open up half a stop (between f16 and f11) in this case.
 
I never felt that Sunny 16 works well because it doesn't consider the deep shadows that happen under direct sunlight, and leaves them very underexposed. So it was always Sunny 11 for me, which is similar to your suggestion for 1/250. And then from there, because I like shadow detail, I would keep the 1/250 for everything else, too--basically Sunny 16+1 stop, all the way down.
 
Agreed, with negative film, only use 16/500 on the rare occasion when you don't want or need any shadow detail (basically only distant landscapes) and are between 40° North and South. At higher latitudes, mostly it's 11/500 (ISO 400) for these cases. Most of the time, you want to key your exposure to the shade with negative film.
They don't emphasize this enough on the internet.
 
For modern panchromatic (negative) film, slight overexposure is preferred to dramatic underexposure. I should think that as long as your process has yielded acceptable results (given your processing, etc.) then why worry? Of course, you could experiment with tweaking exposure, but, all things being equal, I'm not sure that the results would be significantly different.
 
I usually start estimation from 'Sunny 11' in the UK (unless an open scene on the clearest, hottest, of summer days).
I would also take a bet that, if your camera has a mechanical leaf shutter, you could also assume that your '1/500' marked is actually closer to 1/400 or slower. Goes conveniently with 400ASA ;) .
 
S16 is for critical thinking to be applied. :)
Taking pictures on Sunny and Snow, Sunny and White is even more than 1/500 f16 ISO400. But if you are on the regular street and it is Sunny and Shadows it is less than 1/500 f16 ISO400.

On practice with modern and good ISO 400 films f16 instead of f11 or 1/250 instead of 1/500 doesn't make significant difference under sufficient light.
Well, I don't think Foma 400 is ISO 400 film and some films like Pan F seems to be more demanding for accurate exposure.

Nor it is critical for printing from negative. If image is still visible on the negative it is printable, but might take extra time to figure it out.
 
Using an ASA400 film at EI400 is an underexposure. Those films EI is anywhere from 200 to 320. Try using ASA400 at EI250. If in B&W, not much difference.
 
"Sunny 16" works best for slide film, where typically a half to full stop underexposure accommodates the tendency of transparency films to blow out the highlights while retaining image well down in the denser parts of the exposure. Using a meter, it was standard practice to underexpose by that amount most of the time when shooting slides.

For negative films, I've always used a "Sunny 11" rule because with negative films the tendency is to underexpose the shadows creating a loss of detail and smoothness, and highlights can be pushed down in printing or image processing. They have all their overhead at the dense parts of the negative, the opposite of slide film.

G
 
I think trying it will be the plan.
I had gotten to the point that I didn't need to consult my little cheat sheet. But, I've been away for a few years and have to relearn it anyway.
 
Hi,

I've always assumed that the funny 16 rule was for summer time use and have, as there's a difference of about 2 stops between (say) January and July, adjusted accordingly.

I've a cabinet with a lot of old and antique exposure calculators in it and they almost all take the time of day and date into account. The youngest is based on the 1951 BSI's measurements, so should be reliable.

Regards, David
 
If you want to get downright technical with Sunny-16, just look at the exposure calculator on the back of a Mercury II.


Univex Mercury II Back by P F McFarland, on Flickr

I found that I tended to underestimate the light because my eyeglasses have auto tinting, so I had to start either looking over the top of the lenses, or just take them off. Another thing is certain cameras will run either faster or slower on the shutter speeds, so one just has to get some practice in to see where the sweet spot is.

PF
 
Sunny 11 for the majority of the year, sunny 16 on really sunny days in the summer, high noon, hard light.
 
Perhaps somebody can explain to me why there are recommendations to cut exposure by another stop on sand or snow. It always seemed to me that that would cut shadow details even more. Plus, shouldn't those light Zone 8-9 areas be dense on negatives?
 
doitashimash1te said:
Using a 400 speed film and applying the Sunny 16 rule, technically speaking a 1/500 shutter speed would be underexposing a bit indeed. Instead of f16, I would open up half a stop (between f16 and f11) in this case.
Click to expand...

While opening up 1/2 stop would, in theory at least, improve the accuracy, the correct correction would be to open up 1/3 stop. The 1/3 stop increments for shutter speeds are 1/250, 1/320, 1/400, 1/500, ... .

As has been said, shutter accuracy on a legacy shutter is not likely to actually deliver 1/500th with any accuracy so we are splitting hairs.

Also, if it is a leaf shutters, as in the OP's listed cameras except the Leica M, then even a properly calibrated leaf shutter will deliver about 1/200-250 when set to 1/500 at f/16. This is because the shutter starts opening at the center and finishes at the center. The center is open longer than the edges, making the effective shutter speed longer when using a very small aperture, compared to the effective shutter speed when shooting wide open.
 
KenR said:
Perhaps somebody can explain to me why there are recommendations to cut exposure by another stop on sand or snow. It always seemed to me that that would cut shadow details even more. Plus, shouldn't those light Zone 8-9 areas be dense on negatives?
Click to expand...

sand or snow depending on the brightness of the sun. For example, if you were at the beach at high noon you could expose sunny 16 or even F22 if your lens can do it. Same goes for snow.

In these high contrast conditions its best to use a lower contrast film or pull a faster film to help even out the contrast.
 
KenR said:
Perhaps somebody can explain to me why there are recommendations to cut exposure by another stop on sand or snow. It always seemed to me that that would cut shadow details even more. Plus, shouldn't those light Zone 8-9 areas be dense on negatives?
Click to expand...

Reflective surfaces causing double sun radiation. Black surfaces are less reflective, white reflects most.
 
ash13brook said:
I'm not sure why I'm agonizing over this at this point in my life.
I've been using a little chart made for 400 speed film in place of a meter for a long time. I even used it to shoot Kodachrome 200 at night.
It starts out at Sunny 16 - f16 @ 1/500 and works down from that.
I've never had a single problem with that. But, now, I'm wondering...
In reality, isn't that underexposing just a little bit? Would I get a better result by starting at f16 @ 1/250 for 400 speed film? I don't imagine I'll ever make wet prints from the negatives. Only scans and maybe work prints from them. If I decided I needed a"wall hanger", I'd send it out to be printed.

Thanks,
Matt
Click to expand...

Hi Matt

Sunny16 is only a starting guidline.
If you are asking the question now, maybe you are not happy with your results ??

If you are happy with your results, carry on as you were.

I also use Sunny 16 often and adjust for different films, exposure situations/wants, and of course light conditions and lens filters.
July noon sun being different than November noon sun and all that.
The Sunny 16 rule is less a rule and more rather a template.
Slide the template around a bit now that you have used it for years and have some experience to back up your choices.

Cheers
 
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