btvarner
Member
I obtained a Super Ikonta 533/2 folder. It has a Compur-Rapid shutter that has speeds from T through 1/400. Just picked it up. Cosmetically near mint! The shutter has problems however.
1/25 up through 1/400 seemed to work fine. T & B work most of the time (Some sticking). However 1 second up through 1/10 do not have any retard delay. Each of these speeds seem to stay open about the same period of time. Approximately 1/50 or so?
I have cleaned Compur-Rapid shutters before so I did so with this one. I break down to the face plate and use an ultrasonic cleaner in 99% alcohol. Several times through that, blow air on the shutter, then into the oven at 170 until all is evaporated. Let sit overnight, and Ni-oil on some moving parts of the mechanism. Has always worked for me.
Because I do not regularly take the shutters fully apart, I have limited experience with removing and reinstalling the cocking ring.
The cleaning stopped the sticking at T & B and also cleaned up the other speeds that were functioning reasonably before the cleaning. However, the 1 second through 1, 2, 5, & 10 speeds still do not function correctly. This time however, at those speeds only, the shutter sticks open until you manually move the dial to a speed of 1/25 or higher at which time the shutter snaps back shut.............
With these issues remaining, I removed the cocking ring to get a closer look. I may have the cocking ring back on wrong? That is the only thing I can think of. But then again the response of the shutter is exactly the same as before I even removed the cocking ring.........
The slow speed escapements seem to move freely. But from what I can tell the arm that connects in the cocking ring and into the escapement does not seem to be doing its job of touching the gears at any point, no matter what the speed ring is set at.
Hoping that someone has a link for some images and documentation on exactly how this arm engages the slow escapement so that: 1) I can verify that it is being put together as it should be. 2) How to troubleshoot the escapement.
The info at: http://benoit.suaudeau.perso.neuf.fr...ir-manual.html seems to be for the Syncro-Compur and does not seem to be of much help.
I have attached images of my shutter so you can see the exact type.
Red Arrows indicate the two ends of the arm attached to the cocking ring and that should (I assume) engage the escapement when the shutter speed is set low?
Thanks!
1/25 up through 1/400 seemed to work fine. T & B work most of the time (Some sticking). However 1 second up through 1/10 do not have any retard delay. Each of these speeds seem to stay open about the same period of time. Approximately 1/50 or so?
I have cleaned Compur-Rapid shutters before so I did so with this one. I break down to the face plate and use an ultrasonic cleaner in 99% alcohol. Several times through that, blow air on the shutter, then into the oven at 170 until all is evaporated. Let sit overnight, and Ni-oil on some moving parts of the mechanism. Has always worked for me.
Because I do not regularly take the shutters fully apart, I have limited experience with removing and reinstalling the cocking ring.
The cleaning stopped the sticking at T & B and also cleaned up the other speeds that were functioning reasonably before the cleaning. However, the 1 second through 1, 2, 5, & 10 speeds still do not function correctly. This time however, at those speeds only, the shutter sticks open until you manually move the dial to a speed of 1/25 or higher at which time the shutter snaps back shut.............
With these issues remaining, I removed the cocking ring to get a closer look. I may have the cocking ring back on wrong? That is the only thing I can think of. But then again the response of the shutter is exactly the same as before I even removed the cocking ring.........
The slow speed escapements seem to move freely. But from what I can tell the arm that connects in the cocking ring and into the escapement does not seem to be doing its job of touching the gears at any point, no matter what the speed ring is set at.
Hoping that someone has a link for some images and documentation on exactly how this arm engages the slow escapement so that: 1) I can verify that it is being put together as it should be. 2) How to troubleshoot the escapement.
The info at: http://benoit.suaudeau.perso.neuf.fr...ir-manual.html seems to be for the Syncro-Compur and does not seem to be of much help.
I have attached images of my shutter so you can see the exact type.
Red Arrows indicate the two ends of the arm attached to the cocking ring and that should (I assume) engage the escapement when the shutter speed is set low?
Thanks!
Solinar
Analog Preferred
Judging by the lack of paint on the engravings - whatever soak that was done has left a very dry shutter. I usually don't remove the outer speed cam from the shutter assembly and just dabble the shutter blades with Q-tip that is soaked with Rosinol light fluid, a.k.a. naphtha.
By keep the shutter mostly intact - I can run the shutter through its paces at slow speeds and use more than one lens tissue to repeatedly wipe off both the aperture and shutter blades.
I checked the manual, years (1935-50).
http://benoit.suaudeau.perso.neuf.fr/
Very good info - but I didn't find which parts of the shutter should get a micro-drop of lubricant.
By keep the shutter mostly intact - I can run the shutter through its paces at slow speeds and use more than one lens tissue to repeatedly wipe off both the aperture and shutter blades.
I checked the manual, years (1935-50).
http://benoit.suaudeau.perso.neuf.fr/
Very good info - but I didn't find which parts of the shutter should get a micro-drop of lubricant.
Muggins
Junk magnet
Solinar makes a good point - I wonder whether someone has simply dipped the whole thing in acetone (aka nail varnish remover), which would explain the lack of paint in the numbers and logos, and thereby removed all the lubrication whether it should be there or not.
Adrian
Adrian
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
Complete paint loss certainly is a indication the thing has been degreased at some time. But that could also happen in professional service (if they were sloppy enough not to remove the top ring) prior to re-lubricating it to spec.
However, as far as the failure is concerned, the slow speed escapement not engaging is usually a matter of something bent, missing or misplaced - lack of lubracation can hardly cause that (an excess of gummed-up grease might, but I can spot nothing indicating that).
btvarner
Member
Hi guys,
Ok, I was not clear earlier. I just cleaned the shutter by using an ultrasonic cleaner machine with the shutter (including the speed ring) suspended inside a glass jar. That glass jar was filled with 99% [FONT="]Isopropyl [/FONT]alcohol. Yes it did remove the paint on the speed ring. Yes, I have lubricated the shutter, so it is not dry.
I think that Sevo is on to something. I think the slow speed escapement is not engaging because of something bent, missing, or misplaced.
Problem is that from what I can tell everything seems to be in place. As for bent, I cannot tell. What I would like, is to find some images of this same shutter in different states of assembly so I can compare. Every one I have seen to this point may be similar, but is not exact. Any ideas of a most likely issue so I can start working my way through the list?
I know I could have done something wrong in reattaching the cocking ring, but the same low speed settings did not work before I started either. I guess it could have been put together wrong by someone before me but the shutter looked like it had never been apart or at least been a long time ago.
I am trying to go through the manual that Solinar suggested.
Thanks!
Ok, I was not clear earlier. I just cleaned the shutter by using an ultrasonic cleaner machine with the shutter (including the speed ring) suspended inside a glass jar. That glass jar was filled with 99% [FONT="]Isopropyl [/FONT]alcohol. Yes it did remove the paint on the speed ring. Yes, I have lubricated the shutter, so it is not dry.
I think that Sevo is on to something. I think the slow speed escapement is not engaging because of something bent, missing, or misplaced.
Problem is that from what I can tell everything seems to be in place. As for bent, I cannot tell. What I would like, is to find some images of this same shutter in different states of assembly so I can compare. Every one I have seen to this point may be similar, but is not exact. Any ideas of a most likely issue so I can start working my way through the list?
I know I could have done something wrong in reattaching the cocking ring, but the same low speed settings did not work before I started either. I guess it could have been put together wrong by someone before me but the shutter looked like it had never been apart or at least been a long time ago.
I am trying to go through the manual that Solinar suggested.
Thanks!
btvarner
Member
After working on this all afternoon long, here is what I am seeing. Reference the three new images.
#1 - Speed Ring set to 1/25 sec
Notice that the Pallet Lever (Arrow) is riding high/up on the Speed Ring cam. In this position the shutter fires fine and with the correct timing.
#2 - Speed Ring set to 1/10 sec
Notice that the Pallet Lever (Arrow) is riding about half way down the slope of the Speed Ring cam. In this position the shutter still fires fine and with the correct timing.
#3 - Speed Ring set to 1/5 sec
Notice that the Pallet Lever (Arrow) now is low and free of the Speed Ring cam. It is still resting on the Cocking Ring cam below the Speed Ring. This is the position the Pallet Lever sets for this and all slower settings (1/5, 1/2, 1 sec). When the shutter fires, the Pallet Lever remains in this down position. The result is that the shutter opens and remains open. Only when I manipulate the Pallet Lever by moving it upward, does the shutter then close. Obviously the timing is not correct either. If I manually hold the Pallet Lever up as it would be for the faster speeds, does the shutter open and close. The shutter speed however is overly fast. This is the same thing that happens at any of these slower speeds.
Feedback?
#1 - Speed Ring set to 1/25 sec
Notice that the Pallet Lever (Arrow) is riding high/up on the Speed Ring cam. In this position the shutter fires fine and with the correct timing.
#2 - Speed Ring set to 1/10 sec
Notice that the Pallet Lever (Arrow) is riding about half way down the slope of the Speed Ring cam. In this position the shutter still fires fine and with the correct timing.
#3 - Speed Ring set to 1/5 sec
Notice that the Pallet Lever (Arrow) now is low and free of the Speed Ring cam. It is still resting on the Cocking Ring cam below the Speed Ring. This is the position the Pallet Lever sets for this and all slower settings (1/5, 1/2, 1 sec). When the shutter fires, the Pallet Lever remains in this down position. The result is that the shutter opens and remains open. Only when I manipulate the Pallet Lever by moving it upward, does the shutter then close. Obviously the timing is not correct either. If I manually hold the Pallet Lever up as it would be for the faster speeds, does the shutter open and close. The shutter speed however is overly fast. This is the same thing that happens at any of these slower speeds.
Feedback?
Dan Daniel
Well-known
Hmm.. there might be a 'pre-loading' step in this shutter. I am not certain and I don't have one handy. In the first set of photos, lower left shot- the upper 'crescent' arm and the lower timing arm- the part with a few teeth on the outer edge and the central arm sticking up- see how they are both to the inside? If you push the crescent out, you can then push the lower one into its slot. Release the upper crescent and the lower piece will stay. Now re-assemble?
Well, I've got a cold and can't think nor write well, but play with various combinatrion of 'pre-cocking' this escapement.
Well, I've got a cold and can't think nor write well, but play with various combinatrion of 'pre-cocking' this escapement.
btvarner
Member
Thanks Dan!
Can you tell me where on the image are the items you are talking about? 1 O'clock, 6 O'clock, etc. I cannot seem to determine the pieces you are referencing.
Thanks
Can you tell me where on the image are the items you are talking about? 1 O'clock, 6 O'clock, etc. I cannot seem to determine the pieces you are referencing.
Thanks
Dan Daniel
Well-known
The escapement runs from about 1 o'clock to 4 o'clock.
The 'crescent' I keep mentioning is at 1 o'clcok. The red arrow in your latest photos.
The 'geared thing with stick' or whatever I called it is at 3-3:30 o'clock. It is usually tucked into the slot a little below 3 o'clock.
The 'crescent' I keep mentioning is at 1 o'clcok. The red arrow in your latest photos.
The 'geared thing with stick' or whatever I called it is at 3-3:30 o'clock. It is usually tucked into the slot a little below 3 o'clock.
Is the escapement being armed when the shutter is cocked? What you are describing appears at face value to correlate with what would happen if the gear train had already run down, Ie. the shutter would close after a brief delay (1/10, I think). If the pallet pin is being correctly set by the cam this is the only other thing that comes to mind, Ie. there is no delay because the escapement hasn't been armed to start with. I'd take a look at the levers that arm the escapement for correct function and see what you can find.
The above is based on my observations of various Synchro Compurs but being an evolution of the Compur Rapid I'd expect the Compur Rapid is probably similar in this respect.
Cheers,
Brett
The above is based on my observations of various Synchro Compurs but being an evolution of the Compur Rapid I'd expect the Compur Rapid is probably similar in this respect.
Cheers,
Brett
btvarner
Member
That's what I thought. It only allows the speed ring to go on with these pieces in one configuration. Uncocked.
Dan Daniel
Well-known
Did you look over the manual posted above? Direct link-
http://benoit.suaudeau.perso.neuf.fr/manuels_rep/obturateurs/compur_rapid_shutter_repair(2).pdf
Page 22 forward on re-assembly.
http://benoit.suaudeau.perso.neuf.fr/manuels_rep/obturateurs/compur_rapid_shutter_repair(2).pdf
Page 22 forward on re-assembly.
btvarner
Member
Yes, the escapement is armed at the time the shutter is cocked. Both escapements work freely. That is another point. As it shows, there are two escapements in the shutter. The one at about 2-4 O'clock and one at about 5-6 O'clock. I cant seem to determine how/when that one functions at all.........Bruce
btvarner
Member
Yes, I obtained that manual. Does not seem to help as the shutters there are enough different so as to not compair...
btvarner
Member
It seems like someone in the world would have pictures of this same shutter in working condition and with only the speed ring mounted so I could compare.
btvarner
Member
Can someone tell me what this is in yellow? Sure looks like a second escapement to me? I figured one was for the higher speeds and one for the really slow speeds but I can find nothing about this in the manuals I have looked over???
That would have to be the self timer delay. It's a simpler retard escapement.
milosdevino
Established
I have one from an old Retina. I'll pull the face plate off and take some pics tomorrow night.
Mr_Flibble
In Tabulas Argenteas Refero
The yellow marked escapement is the self-timer.
It is engaged when you push back on the little knob at the top of the housing and move the shutter charging handle beyond this point.
The problems you are experience with the slow shutter speeds might be due to the little blade spring in the slow speed escapement not having enough tension, I can see it has uncoiled in the red section in the photo above.
It is engaged when you push back on the little knob at the top of the housing and move the shutter charging handle beyond this point.
The problems you are experience with the slow shutter speeds might be due to the little blade spring in the slow speed escapement not having enough tension, I can see it has uncoiled in the red section in the photo above.
milosdevino
Established
OK, so I have had a look at my one. I have taken some camera phone pics, but they are pretty terrible and may prove more of a hinderance than a help.
I was playing with the settings and I think I may have found your problem, because mine started exhibiting the same behaviour.
The cocking ring must be seated properly, it is stopped from this by the pallet lever shown in your pics 2 & 3. If you push down on the cocking ring to seat it, whilst pulling the pallet lever out towards the outer casing, it will allow the cocking ring to seat
properly and everything should work properly.
The ring can unseat quite easily and not be noticed because it only takes a fraction of movement to make a difference.
I hope this is clear enough to help.
I was playing with the settings and I think I may have found your problem, because mine started exhibiting the same behaviour.
The cocking ring must be seated properly, it is stopped from this by the pallet lever shown in your pics 2 & 3. If you push down on the cocking ring to seat it, whilst pulling the pallet lever out towards the outer casing, it will allow the cocking ring to seat
properly and everything should work properly.
The ring can unseat quite easily and not be noticed because it only takes a fraction of movement to make a difference.
I hope this is clear enough to help.