shawn
Veteran
It should be, but it isn't.
The state doesn't require masks. How would a school enforce a mask requirement then? Deny entry to the school?
Now you are refusing to provide an education to a student and have just opened yourself up to a much larger lawsuit, potentially at the federal level if the student has an IEP. And for IEP violations you *personally* can be sued (not just the district) and your personal property is now in jeopardy.
Shawn
peterm1
Veteran
If that is correct Shawn then your education system is more screwed than even I thought it could be.
Though I think that school administrators use such considerations as the means of avoiding acting simply because it is easier.
It is not a matter of refusing to provide education to kids. Its a matter of enforcing rules made for the good of everyone. And as I said its not just about masks -its about the other measures too, like social distancing. And I still expect there are ways to manage it. For example write to every parent to inform them of the requirement - mandated by the school board if that is what it takes, and of the consequences of non compliance and require them to provide a note exempting their child if that is what they wish. Suspend kids who without permission refuse to mask. Yes it hurts the kids in later life potentially but the sooner they learn their decisions have real world consequences the better. And so on.
A creative administrator can dream up a thousand ways to make life unpleasant if they are of a mind to. And what I have seen of policy makers and administrators in the USA over the past several years the USA with the weaponizing of the law, the country is full of such people who know how to use rules to make people uncomfortable. All it takes is the motivation to do the right thing rather than just shrugging and saying "its all too tough" - lets meet in the teachers' refectory, have a glass of Chardonnay and forget about it - it's not our problem.
Unless an administrator can show that they took every reasonable measure, or attempted to, when SHTF its still their #ss on the line. (At least it should be).
lynnb
Veteran
The young woman highlighted a problem that needed highlighting.
I suspect part of the problem facing schools in a pandemic is the physical design of schools. Students are taught in subject classes and those classes each last for around 40-60mins. Then they usually split up and move to the next subject class in a different classroom. In crowded corridors like where this picture was taken. You can't just keep the students in the one class room all day and move the teachers around because students take different elective subjects during the course of the day, and some classes need to be held in specialised classrooms eg science and music. What alternative is there to this arrangement? Masks would seem the most accessible strategy, but as already mentioned they are non-compulsory.
If you were designing a school for a pandemic world, you'd allow for traffic between classes out in the open, not corridors.
I suspect part of the problem facing schools in a pandemic is the physical design of schools. Students are taught in subject classes and those classes each last for around 40-60mins. Then they usually split up and move to the next subject class in a different classroom. In crowded corridors like where this picture was taken. You can't just keep the students in the one class room all day and move the teachers around because students take different elective subjects during the course of the day, and some classes need to be held in specialised classrooms eg science and music. What alternative is there to this arrangement? Masks would seem the most accessible strategy, but as already mentioned they are non-compulsory.
If you were designing a school for a pandemic world, you'd allow for traffic between classes out in the open, not corridors.
shawn
Veteran
"If that is correct Shawn then your education system is more screwed than even I thought it could be. "
It is correct. Being able to be sued personally isn't from the education system, it is because it becomes a civil rights issue.
Social distancing is not possible in a school running at capacity. A classroom has 25 or 30 kids in it, typically with 1 teacher. Under a normal schedule that teacher will see 150 or 200 kids in a day. Then go home and correct 150 or 200 kids work, enter their grades in ASPEN, answer parent emails, prep for the next day and repeat. There isn't the teaching staff or floor space to spread out those classes to follow proper social distancing guidelines. It isn't like your hardware store where you can just ask some customers to wait outside.
Even running at half capacity (half kids in school, half kids running virtual and then swapping) my local district can only hit 3' of separation between students. Ditto transportation to/from school. During the shut down that district was killing themselves trying to do best for their students. Deployed technology to those that didn't have it for virtual learning, setup brown bagged lunches for any students that needed them(about half the district students get free meals), and worked like crazy to help teachers completely change how they were providing instruction and to get somewhat over that learning curve.
I never shrugged and said it is all too tough. I took issue with your continued posts saying it is all the teachers fault. That is just wrong and misunderstands the many layers involved. Yes, I think the school in Georgia is doing it wrong, but I also think it is a symptom of a larger problem. If the administrator tried to enforce rules that the states own board of health won’t, that person would not be an administrator for long.
IMO, one of the biggest problems with education is that everyone that went to school thinks that makes them an expert on education. It doesn't. By the same logic... I got operated on, I must be a surgeon now.
The actual experts (those doing it) are discredited based on some experience someone had decades ago with bad teacher(s). How many have observed current classrooms?
Many people running education systems have never been educators. They look for simple answers for complex problems. To actually solve a problem requires understanding the complexity of the problem, otherwise you are just treating symptoms.
Standardized testing is a perfect example.... it assumes all students are the same. They aren't. The brilliant kids are short changed, the kids that are behind are setup to fail, and the kids with other issues are too. I know plenty of kids that know the material, but you put a high stakes test in front of them (pass this or you don’t graduate!!!!) and their anxiety takes over and they blank. A couple of days testing can not adequately sum up a years worth of growth. The tests also mostly focus on content knowledge, which is really only a portion of what teachers are actually trying to teach. They are using the content to teach skills. A science teacher may be teaching biology, but they are also really working on critical thinking skills, analysis and looking at the data/evidence to answer a question. That isn't on a standardized test.
I know many teachers. Of them, 2 that aren't great, the rest are extremely dedicated individuals that absolutely put their hearts and souls into doing their best for their students. During the lockdown several were working 12-18 hours a day 7 days a week trying to do right by their students. Knowing that they weren't as effective as in person (which was tearing them up) and that no matter what, people would take issue with whatever they did. They still did it anyway.
Maybe where you are the teachers are as you say. But they aren’t where I am.
Shawn
It is correct. Being able to be sued personally isn't from the education system, it is because it becomes a civil rights issue.
Social distancing is not possible in a school running at capacity. A classroom has 25 or 30 kids in it, typically with 1 teacher. Under a normal schedule that teacher will see 150 or 200 kids in a day. Then go home and correct 150 or 200 kids work, enter their grades in ASPEN, answer parent emails, prep for the next day and repeat. There isn't the teaching staff or floor space to spread out those classes to follow proper social distancing guidelines. It isn't like your hardware store where you can just ask some customers to wait outside.
Even running at half capacity (half kids in school, half kids running virtual and then swapping) my local district can only hit 3' of separation between students. Ditto transportation to/from school. During the shut down that district was killing themselves trying to do best for their students. Deployed technology to those that didn't have it for virtual learning, setup brown bagged lunches for any students that needed them(about half the district students get free meals), and worked like crazy to help teachers completely change how they were providing instruction and to get somewhat over that learning curve.
I never shrugged and said it is all too tough. I took issue with your continued posts saying it is all the teachers fault. That is just wrong and misunderstands the many layers involved. Yes, I think the school in Georgia is doing it wrong, but I also think it is a symptom of a larger problem. If the administrator tried to enforce rules that the states own board of health won’t, that person would not be an administrator for long.
IMO, one of the biggest problems with education is that everyone that went to school thinks that makes them an expert on education. It doesn't. By the same logic... I got operated on, I must be a surgeon now.
The actual experts (those doing it) are discredited based on some experience someone had decades ago with bad teacher(s). How many have observed current classrooms?
Many people running education systems have never been educators. They look for simple answers for complex problems. To actually solve a problem requires understanding the complexity of the problem, otherwise you are just treating symptoms.
Standardized testing is a perfect example.... it assumes all students are the same. They aren't. The brilliant kids are short changed, the kids that are behind are setup to fail, and the kids with other issues are too. I know plenty of kids that know the material, but you put a high stakes test in front of them (pass this or you don’t graduate!!!!) and their anxiety takes over and they blank. A couple of days testing can not adequately sum up a years worth of growth. The tests also mostly focus on content knowledge, which is really only a portion of what teachers are actually trying to teach. They are using the content to teach skills. A science teacher may be teaching biology, but they are also really working on critical thinking skills, analysis and looking at the data/evidence to answer a question. That isn't on a standardized test.
I know many teachers. Of them, 2 that aren't great, the rest are extremely dedicated individuals that absolutely put their hearts and souls into doing their best for their students. During the lockdown several were working 12-18 hours a day 7 days a week trying to do right by their students. Knowing that they weren't as effective as in person (which was tearing them up) and that no matter what, people would take issue with whatever they did. They still did it anyway.
Maybe where you are the teachers are as you say. But they aren’t where I am.
Shawn
shawn
Veteran
Very true about the physical limitations and inability for teachers to just move between classes at the high school level. At younger levels I know some schools will be doing that but it is possible because of consistent student groupings in those schools.
The other way to attempt to work around the crowded transitions would be with cohorts with staggered start/end times so that less students transition all at the same time. This would be *very* difficult to setup and implement and to maintain but it could help. But that causes other issues as you are loosing instructional time to transition time (which most states have minimum requirements for) so the school day would have to be extended or the state would have to modify the timing requirements.
Shawn
peterm1
Veteran
I never shrugged and said it is all too tough. I took issue with your continued posts saying it is all the teachers fault. That is just wrong and misunderstands the many layers involved. Yes, I think the school in Georgia is doing it wrong, but I also think it is a symptom of a larger problem.
Shawn I do not think there is as much distance between us as you think. Yes there probably a bit of hyperbole in my posts but believe me, my main gripe too is with the system, but I have to add - and the culture. It's pretty common throughout the west. And when I am referring to "teachers" I am not speaking about the "foot soldiers" on the ground. The main problem is, I am sure, with the upper echelon of educationalists who make the system, set the culture and enforce the norms.
Shawn I do not think there is as much distance between us as you think. Yes there probably a bit of hyperbole in my posts but believe me, my main gripe too is with the system, but I have to add - and the culture. It's pretty common throughout the west. And when I am referring to "teachers" I am not speaking about the "foot soldiers" on the ground. The main problem is, I am sure, with the upper echelon of educationalists who make the system, set the culture and enforce the norms.
David Hughes
David Hughes
As I see it; if you are going to teach, say, computer science then you ought to have a degree in computer science and a relevant qualification in teaching. The latter takes another year to acquire - or did as I've no idea what they do these days - and so we are talking about several years building up debt.
Now, given the choice would you go into teaching with an extra year's debt or into trade where a degree in computer science could get you a lot more pay?
And who controls the pay of teachers?
Just my 2d worth.
Regards, David
Now, given the choice would you go into teaching with an extra year's debt or into trade where a degree in computer science could get you a lot more pay?
And who controls the pay of teachers?
Just my 2d worth.
Regards, David
ChipMcD
Well-known
Some things never change in school administration. In 1972, when I was in high school, our Principal (note spelling) confiscated an issue of our school newspaper because it contained an article that he thought might embarrass school administrators.
I was pleased to see in the linked article about this incident that the school not only revoked the photographer's suspension, but "expunged" her school record. My guess is that the complaining mother likely invoked another societal system, namely the judicial system and that pesky First Amendment to our Constitution, in her discussions with the Principal. That often gets their attention.
I was pleased to see in the linked article about this incident that the school not only revoked the photographer's suspension, but "expunged" her school record. My guess is that the complaining mother likely invoked another societal system, namely the judicial system and that pesky First Amendment to our Constitution, in her discussions with the Principal. That often gets their attention.
BillBingham2
Registered User
This is the same problem companies everywhere are faced with for the past few months. The company I work at, private, stacks us in like sardines, and has scrambled to reconfigure seating, walkways, meeting rooms. It’s a brand new world and it will take time to figure out what works. Rebuilding schools, houses of worship, hair salons, courtrooms, hospitals, it’s a brave new world that will demand changes and more of us all. We can do it, it’s not the first time we’ve had to, nor will it be the last.
B2 (;->
BillBingham2
Registered User
My first programming teacher in 1977 in high school (my home room teacher and a great math teacher, John Alampi) got courted away from teaching by Kodak about three years after that. Way more money and better retirement back then.
I’d love to go back and teach but I need to rebuild my retirement funds (thank you Great Recession).
B2 (;->