jvr
Well-known
Well, I still own both... When I bought the M8, I thought I would just drop my Rd1s but that hasn't happen. And I have to tell you I still don't know what camera to keep, if I _had_ to sell one...
The M8, when shot as it should be (and it can be a big list of things...) produces "technically" better images than the Epson. Being able to use more lenses with the (amost) correct framelines, is great. It's more robust than the Epson. Focus is perfect with all my lenses (including a Jupiter 9 that I could never focus wid-open on the Epson). Wide-angles don't vignette (when compared to the Epson). Etc.
But...
Thruth is, I don't need to think that much with the Epson and it quickly disapears, as a tool, and I focus on making images. With the M8 (unlinke my M3, which behaves like the Eposn), it takes more time to get "in the mood" and some of the problems I find in the M8 get in the way and they tend to break the "flow". Problems, for me, are:
1) The shutter button is really bad. I know it can be adjusted (and that is something I am seriously considering). My copy of the M8 has a very rough shutter button and, even worse, the detents are very hard and I get myself shaking pictures below 1/30 because of that (I can easily get 1/8 pictures in the Epson / M3 / Hexar / CLE without noticeable shake).
2) Shutter is loud, with a clunky sound that really annoys me, especially in low noise places. I know Sean Reid wrote that people tend to notice more the ahutter noise from the Rd1s than the M8 (becuase is more mettalic), but that is not my everyday experience. And it shakes, too, although (more or less...) controlled tests I performed show that camera shake blurriness I get come from my inability to deal with the shutter button, not the shutter "recoil".
3) RF windows become dirty very often (no recess) and RF image quality (and accuracy) degrades easily. I have to keep on cleaning them.
4) High ISO quality is worse than the Epson (both in RAW, Capture One development). In this regard, auto-ISO was BIG leap in usability, as I kept fiddling with the ISO to avoid noise.
5) Framelines are very tight (at least for the distances I usually focus). So tight that I even use a 28-90 L-M adapter for my beloved UC-Hexanon 35/2 when I mount it on the M8, I feel the 28 framelines are "better" for the 35. In fact, that's the same thing on the Epson, but I can change framelines at will.
So...
My "best" pictures with the M8 (if I am careful) are better than the Epson (in fact, they were the best I saw until I got the Nikon D700) in technical terms. But (and that is a big but!) it takes some "effort" to accomplish that, so the process becomes more "in-the-way". This means I get more "keepers" with the Epson (and even more with my old M3 - I have rolls with the M3 where it's difficult to ditch a photo. With my film Nikons, 2 or 3 in 36 was a good ratio) and, at least for me, that's what photography is about.
Before I bought the D700, I took the M8 whenever I was prepared to sacrify "usability" to "quality" (that could even mean a - gasp - tripod...). Nowadays, I tend to grab the D700 for that. And the Epson is always in my bag, usually with a 28/2 Cron on it, the CV 50/1.5 and the 21/8 ZM (that I use without viewfinder, just guesstimating). Yes, the Epson and not the M8...
Maybe I was unlucky with my copy of the M8, rgd shutter button and shutter. It's true that my Epson is MUCH more frail (thay have more or less the same age, more or less the same use, and my M8 looks like it came out of a box - just like my M3 from the 50s!! - while the Epson shows lots of brassing, the RF misaligns itself sometimes, the cover is getting loose here and there, etc). But in the last few months (in fact, since I bought the D700 Last December), my M8 gathers more dust than the Epson.
OTOH, it's a joy to snap my Elmarit 90/2.8 on the M8 and being actually able to focus it as it should. Or the CV 35/1.2. Or even the CV 50/1.5. But then 20% of my low-light pictures show signs of camera-shake...
Oh well, that's why I keep both...
Maybe the M9 will solve these issues and I trade the M8. Or maybe I sell the M8, plus a huge array of lenses, and keep the Epson with the lenses I like to use on it and keep on using the D700 for more "serious" work.
Probably, this post was not very useful.
The M8, when shot as it should be (and it can be a big list of things...) produces "technically" better images than the Epson. Being able to use more lenses with the (amost) correct framelines, is great. It's more robust than the Epson. Focus is perfect with all my lenses (including a Jupiter 9 that I could never focus wid-open on the Epson). Wide-angles don't vignette (when compared to the Epson). Etc.
But...
Thruth is, I don't need to think that much with the Epson and it quickly disapears, as a tool, and I focus on making images. With the M8 (unlinke my M3, which behaves like the Eposn), it takes more time to get "in the mood" and some of the problems I find in the M8 get in the way and they tend to break the "flow". Problems, for me, are:
1) The shutter button is really bad. I know it can be adjusted (and that is something I am seriously considering). My copy of the M8 has a very rough shutter button and, even worse, the detents are very hard and I get myself shaking pictures below 1/30 because of that (I can easily get 1/8 pictures in the Epson / M3 / Hexar / CLE without noticeable shake).
2) Shutter is loud, with a clunky sound that really annoys me, especially in low noise places. I know Sean Reid wrote that people tend to notice more the ahutter noise from the Rd1s than the M8 (becuase is more mettalic), but that is not my everyday experience. And it shakes, too, although (more or less...) controlled tests I performed show that camera shake blurriness I get come from my inability to deal with the shutter button, not the shutter "recoil".
3) RF windows become dirty very often (no recess) and RF image quality (and accuracy) degrades easily. I have to keep on cleaning them.
4) High ISO quality is worse than the Epson (both in RAW, Capture One development). In this regard, auto-ISO was BIG leap in usability, as I kept fiddling with the ISO to avoid noise.
5) Framelines are very tight (at least for the distances I usually focus). So tight that I even use a 28-90 L-M adapter for my beloved UC-Hexanon 35/2 when I mount it on the M8, I feel the 28 framelines are "better" for the 35. In fact, that's the same thing on the Epson, but I can change framelines at will.
So...
My "best" pictures with the M8 (if I am careful) are better than the Epson (in fact, they were the best I saw until I got the Nikon D700) in technical terms. But (and that is a big but!) it takes some "effort" to accomplish that, so the process becomes more "in-the-way". This means I get more "keepers" with the Epson (and even more with my old M3 - I have rolls with the M3 where it's difficult to ditch a photo. With my film Nikons, 2 or 3 in 36 was a good ratio) and, at least for me, that's what photography is about.
Before I bought the D700, I took the M8 whenever I was prepared to sacrify "usability" to "quality" (that could even mean a - gasp - tripod...). Nowadays, I tend to grab the D700 for that. And the Epson is always in my bag, usually with a 28/2 Cron on it, the CV 50/1.5 and the 21/8 ZM (that I use without viewfinder, just guesstimating). Yes, the Epson and not the M8...
Maybe I was unlucky with my copy of the M8, rgd shutter button and shutter. It's true that my Epson is MUCH more frail (thay have more or less the same age, more or less the same use, and my M8 looks like it came out of a box - just like my M3 from the 50s!! - while the Epson shows lots of brassing, the RF misaligns itself sometimes, the cover is getting loose here and there, etc). But in the last few months (in fact, since I bought the D700 Last December), my M8 gathers more dust than the Epson.
OTOH, it's a joy to snap my Elmarit 90/2.8 on the M8 and being actually able to focus it as it should. Or the CV 35/1.2. Or even the CV 50/1.5. But then 20% of my low-light pictures show signs of camera-shake...
Oh well, that's why I keep both...
Maybe the M9 will solve these issues and I trade the M8. Or maybe I sell the M8, plus a huge array of lenses, and keep the Epson with the lenses I like to use on it and keep on using the D700 for more "serious" work.
Probably, this post was not very useful.
crusius
Established
Well, I still own both... When I bought the M8, I thought I would just drop my Rd1s but that hasn't happen. And I have to tell you I still don't know what camera to keep, if I _had_ to sell one...
The M8, when shot as it should be (and it can be a big list of things...) produces "technically" better images than the Epson. Being able to use more lenses with the (amost) correct framelines, is great. It's more robust than the Epson. Focus is perfect with all my lenses (including a Jupiter 9 that I could never focus wid-open on the Epson). Wide-angles don't vignette (when compared to the Epson). Etc.
But...
Thruth is, I don't need to think that much with the Epson and it quickly disapears, as a tool, and I focus on making images. With the M8 (unlinke my M3, which behaves like the Eposn), it takes more time to get "in the mood" and some of the problems I find in the M8 get in the way and they tend to break the "flow". Problems, for me, are:
<snip>
Oh well, that's why I keep both...
Maybe the M9 will solve these issues and I trade the M8. Or maybe I sell the M8, plus a huge array of lenses, and keep the Epson with the lenses I like to use on it and keep on using the D700 for more "serious" work.
Probably, this post was not very useful.
On the contrary, it points out the real difference between the two cameras:
When people say that the M8 image quality is head and shoulders above the R-D1, like yanidel did one post above yours, they're both right and wrong, and you explain why.
The M8 is 10MP without an AA filter. We should know by now that at this level, the best image an M8 can produce is better, for all intents and purposes, than medium format film. Yes, it can be that good. (We should all be familiar with http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/shootout.shtml by now.)
Can the R-D1 beat that? No. It just can't.
But here's the unfortunate truth: There are people out there with both cameras and who would love nothing more than for the M8 to completely obliterate the R-D1 in use --- people who are not attached to the equipment and just want the best image they can get under normal usage. That a lot of these people (you included, and maybe and unfortunately me) can't get rid of the R-D1 shows just how much the R-D1 gets it right, and just how much the M8 screwed up. The M8 is a medium format camera on an M body. There should be absolutely no practical reason to keep an R-D1 around.
I really wanted the M8 to crush the R-D1 into nothingness. The M8 is my first "medium format quality camera," and since it is the same size and uses the same lenses as my last "35mm format camera," the R-D1, I would like to be able to say "goodbye 35mm!" But I can't. And that is very disappointing.
PS: I should look into the shutter button problem. I have been noticing that with the M8 more of my shots are blurry, and that may be the reason. Do you know of any DIY tutorials out there?
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MCTuomey
Veteran
fwiw, the AE of the R-D1 was always inconsistent for me even in just mildly challenging light. I hardly used it as a result. M8's AE much better.
but to point:
i'm interested in your observation that the M8 files seem "rigid" compared to those of the R-D1. i have noted this rigidity myself, not so much relative to white balance, contrast, or exposure, but to sharpening routines for example -- the actions i use PSP for rather than the RAW converter. is this what you're experiencing?
crusius
Established
As I said, I can't put my finger on it yet, but even though I experience it in sharpening, etc, I experience it more strongly in curve manipulation (highlights, shadow, fill light, etc...). For example, I seem to be able to get more out of shadows from the R-D1 than from the M8, and noise may be the problem in this particular case. Highlights also feel less flexible, and here the problem may be due to the limitations imposed by the "8-bit RAW". I just don't know.
I haven't had the M8 for long enough yet (about 500 exposures so far), but it feels like this: if something's wrong it is harder to fix what's wrong. It just feels, well, "rigid." Of course, when it is good it is really good.
I don't know for how long have you had yours, but maybe it is a question of changing the way we do things compared to the more "normal" R-D1 images. I hope it is and that I just haven't figured it out yet. (But I remember not having this experience when changing from the 10D to the R-D1 --- on the contrary, the R-D1 did to my 10D in terms of consistent image quality and ease of manipulation what I expected the M8 to do to my R-D1...)
Tuolumne
Veteran
I just started reusing my r-d1, after it had been preempted by my Lumix G1. I have never used an M8. Let me just say that I had forgotten how good the images are from the r-d1, no matter what anyone says. They have a clarity and shine that none of my other digital cameras has. Who cares if it "compares" better or worse to the M8? If it delights you, it's good enough. That how I feel about my r-d1: the images delight me. Anything else just creates an unquenchable case of GAS. Buy an M8? You will never be satisifed until you get an M9, and so on and so on ad infinitum.
/T
/T
back alley
IMAGES
same here...i am loving my drf experience with the rd1.
MCTuomey
Veteran
well said. an M8/9 doesn't make it any less a great camera. when you've worn out your R-D1, give it a proper viking funeral
Flinor
Well-known
You guys have been truly great and very helpful to an old guy who can't make up his mind. I spent an hour reviewing my old RD-1 files and came to the conclusion that "there ain't anything wrong" with them. Then I dug out a couple of 11x14's (the largest I ever print) and came to the same conclusion. Then I looked at some M8 images on line but that didn't help because they were someone else's images and not the way I would have shot the scene.
I'm about to leave for a week in Colorado with nothing but a Spotmatic F and some Fomapan R to do some ruminating. Thanks again.
I'm about to leave for a week in Colorado with nothing but a Spotmatic F and some Fomapan R to do some ruminating. Thanks again.
BearCatCow
Established
Looking at pictures you've taken and taking more pictures provides GAS relief in many many cases!
hon910
Established
Thanks, guys so far on the comments. It is really a great help to me.
jvr
Well-known
Crusius:
I fully agree with your view!!
Rgd shutter button, look at this thread in LUG:
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/27130-adjusting-shutter-release-feel.html
And while there, serach for Mark Norton's Anatomy of a M8. Surreal...
I fully agree with your view!!
Rgd shutter button, look at this thread in LUG:
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/27130-adjusting-shutter-release-feel.html
And while there, serach for Mark Norton's Anatomy of a M8. Surreal...
jvr
Well-known
Yes, I think you are right on the money here: my feeling is that the M8 files are less "flexible" (trying to bring up shadows may be useless - if it's a big underexposure, increasing sharpness will bring up artifacts, etc).
But it's also true that my M8 files need less processing than the Epson, _if_ I expose them correctly (that is, a bit "to the right", on the verge of higlight blow). Most sharpeness issues I have with the Leica (as I said before) are due to camera shake because of the very hard and rough shutter release button: on a tripod (or at high speed shutters) the M8 files need almost no sharpening to be really sharp...
Problem with exposing correctly is that I get lower speeds and (guess what!) mor camera shake.
Leica RAW files are 8 bit and of course Leica does not truncate from the efective 12 bit (or so) the sensor deliver. So, some bit-shuffling is definitely going on (as a matter of fact, the M8 files, when correctly exposed, show a tonal range that can be breathtaking), even when outputting RAW. So, I find no surprise getting more "rigidity" in terms of tonal range and / or sharpening (my feeling is that the Leica sensor is more noisy than the Epson and the 12-to-8 bit conservion may introduce some more artifacts).
Loks like Leica has inverted the trend with the M9, providing 16 bit RAW files with (hopefully with less bit-shuffling).
myM8yogi
Well-known
JVR, have you tried using various accessories on your M8 to try to make the camera fit your specific ergonomic requirements. Accessories such as the "thumbs up"; half cases with grips, and soft shutter releases? I haven't used any myself, but since the accessories exist I assume that some people find them useful.... just a thought if you are having trouble with camera shake.
Olsen
Well-known
hon910,
First if all; compliments on your photographs from Singapore, Malaysia and Cambodia. I travel each year to Singapore and, particularly Tioman Island, but alos other places in Malaysia.
I think that moving from the RD-1 to the M8 will be, in sum, an advantage for you. There is a price difference that must be covered of some 1,000 - 1,300 US$, but I think it is well worth doing. But beware of the following.
1)
The major problem with the M8 is the 'Red Line'. See to that the camera you buy has been fixed for the Red Line Problem. Or get a warranty with it that covers repairing this fault.
3)
Get all the UV/IR filters included in the deal as possible. They are expensive.
First if all; compliments on your photographs from Singapore, Malaysia and Cambodia. I travel each year to Singapore and, particularly Tioman Island, but alos other places in Malaysia.
I think that moving from the RD-1 to the M8 will be, in sum, an advantage for you. There is a price difference that must be covered of some 1,000 - 1,300 US$, but I think it is well worth doing. But beware of the following.
1)
The major problem with the M8 is the 'Red Line'. See to that the camera you buy has been fixed for the Red Line Problem. Or get a warranty with it that covers repairing this fault.
3)
Get all the UV/IR filters included in the deal as possible. They are expensive.
crusius
Established
Thanks a bunch. Bookmarked. I have three things to do regarding the shutter button on my list: grip-tac, thumbs-up, adjustment. I hope I can get by without the thumbs-up.
I have to sign up to that forum, otherwise I can't see the pictures on the anatomy of the M8 thread.
In any case, all that's missing now is a step-by-step on how to adjust the rangefinder vertically. Mine is off a bit and is really annoying. The R-D1 is pretty good in this regard: remove the flash shoe and adjust with a normal screwdriver. Due to that I'm not afraid at all to bump it around.
jvr
Well-known
Yup! I have a large Softrelease (Tom Abrahamsson's, Rapidwinder) in my M3 and another small (and black) in the Epson. I tried the M3 softrelease on the M8, but it's worse: I get a "bump" from the hard detent that fires the shutter and another, because the softrelease hits the stops in the end. So, no good...
I tried a M8 half-case with a small grip. It helps...
And then I found the ThumbsUp. That, together with auto-ISO, saved my M8. If not for them, I think I would have already sold it.
Problem is, no flash, no external VF (and I have a 12 and a 15, not to mention the 21/2.8)... :/
The best setup for me is both the case and the thumbsup (the case has the double advantage that muffles the sound of the shutter and grip is much better: the M8 cover may be resistent but it sure is slippery).
But changing batteries and SD with the case is an extra hassle, on top of removing AND holding the bottom. So, most of the time, I have the case off (but the thumbsup always on).
Everytime I grab the Epson, everything seems to go so smooth rgd interface, even small stuff like changing a battery and / or changing SD...
jvr
Well-known
Well, just for that thread, it pays off to register. Unbelievable...
My RF patch on the M8 has always been spot on, either way. On the contrary, I had to adujst my Epson a few times. One of them, it even had to be adusted professionaly: the RF patch was very unstable, something was loose: when I fired the shutter, just the small vibration was enough to move the path a bit...
From what I read, the M8 RF system is more resilient but not to be messed around: let pros do the work.
The shutter relase (athough it requires disconnecting a flat cable and probably losing warranty...) looks much easier. In fact, I have yet to try it just because I miss the long thin screwdriver (it's on my shopping list!) to undo the internal screw that hold the top AND I have been using the Epson.
BTW, M8 construction shines, even in those small things: to take off the top you undo screws, to take off Epson's top you also undo screws, but you have to unglue the grip cover...
Rgd the M8 shutter release, a thumbsup helps a lot. And I also use a different technique than ALL my other cameras: I don't use the very tip of the index finger. I lay the finger more horizontally and press the button with a kind of "rocking motion" towards the tip. This helps a lot, however unnatural it may sound.
It looks like I would like an Epson, but bulit by Leica, huh?
hon910
Established
Hi
Hi
Hi Olsen,
Thank you for the compliments, appreciate that.
Some of the picture was taken with my M6 which I am still very appreciate it.
By the way, I have got an offer of a used M8 at about US$2300 that comes with the grip. But I have checked it has a 70,000+ of shutter count.
And it does have minor scratch on it. And I notice the black wordings does come on the button beside the LCD.
By looking at the shutter count, does that determine it has been heavily used?
So is there a risk to buy it?
What is the red line problem?
Thanks
Hi
Hi Olsen,
Thank you for the compliments, appreciate that.
Some of the picture was taken with my M6 which I am still very appreciate it.
By the way, I have got an offer of a used M8 at about US$2300 that comes with the grip. But I have checked it has a 70,000+ of shutter count.
And it does have minor scratch on it. And I notice the black wordings does come on the button beside the LCD.
By looking at the shutter count, does that determine it has been heavily used?
So is there a risk to buy it?
What is the red line problem?
Thanks