jamiewakeham
Long time lurker
Hi all
I've not posted here for quite some time - other things have come between me and photography in the last few years. It's nice to see some of the same old names still posting, though!
I'm starting to have the time to think about photography again. I've built up a fair amount of kit in various formats - a medium format kit, pentax screw mount film slrs, and in M mount, my M3, RD-1 and several lenses.
I feel the need for a massive simplification. When I think about picking up a camera I almost freeze, and I can't choose what to go for. I either end up grabbing way too much, or nothing at all. I also find that I just don't have the time or inclination to dev and scan film any more. So, I'm thining of getting rid of everything except my MF kit (when I want to go do mountain landscapes, I still want to do it on MF) and my M mount glass, and using the proceeds to get a used M8.
Why an M8? I'm not in a position to put any more cash into this at the moment, and I won't accrue enough from selling to fund an M9. I do absolutely want a coupled rangefinder, so the alternatives that will mount M glass won't do. I could just keep the RD-1. I love its images, but the handling was never quite right for me. Compared to my M3 it's just too tall - it doesn't quite fit in my hand - and the finder is not nearly as good - I know the M8 will be a letdown compared to the M3 as well, but I'd hope it was a bit closer? A longer EBL would be good as well - I do like shooting wide open.
Am I mad? Or does this sound reasonable? What should I be looking for in a used M8? I'll go for a local (ie UK) dealer - prices seem to range from £1000 to £1250. I get that shutter count is not that great a factor and I should buy primarily on condition. Several I see for sale have counts in the 30k region - that's likely to be OK, isn't it?
Am I right in thinking that the M8.2 upgrades aren't that big a deal? I'm not too fussed about the shutter variations, as long as both have similar longevity, though I guess that an M8 convered to M8.2 has, by definition, a younger shutter. I tend to take good care of my gear, so the sapphire glass doesn't strike me as a deal breaker.
Any thoughts?
Cheers
Jamie
I've not posted here for quite some time - other things have come between me and photography in the last few years. It's nice to see some of the same old names still posting, though!
I'm starting to have the time to think about photography again. I've built up a fair amount of kit in various formats - a medium format kit, pentax screw mount film slrs, and in M mount, my M3, RD-1 and several lenses.
I feel the need for a massive simplification. When I think about picking up a camera I almost freeze, and I can't choose what to go for. I either end up grabbing way too much, or nothing at all. I also find that I just don't have the time or inclination to dev and scan film any more. So, I'm thining of getting rid of everything except my MF kit (when I want to go do mountain landscapes, I still want to do it on MF) and my M mount glass, and using the proceeds to get a used M8.
Why an M8? I'm not in a position to put any more cash into this at the moment, and I won't accrue enough from selling to fund an M9. I do absolutely want a coupled rangefinder, so the alternatives that will mount M glass won't do. I could just keep the RD-1. I love its images, but the handling was never quite right for me. Compared to my M3 it's just too tall - it doesn't quite fit in my hand - and the finder is not nearly as good - I know the M8 will be a letdown compared to the M3 as well, but I'd hope it was a bit closer? A longer EBL would be good as well - I do like shooting wide open.
Am I mad? Or does this sound reasonable? What should I be looking for in a used M8? I'll go for a local (ie UK) dealer - prices seem to range from £1000 to £1250. I get that shutter count is not that great a factor and I should buy primarily on condition. Several I see for sale have counts in the 30k region - that's likely to be OK, isn't it?
Am I right in thinking that the M8.2 upgrades aren't that big a deal? I'm not too fussed about the shutter variations, as long as both have similar longevity, though I guess that an M8 convered to M8.2 has, by definition, a younger shutter. I tend to take good care of my gear, so the sapphire glass doesn't strike me as a deal breaker.
Any thoughts?
Cheers
Jamie
Lss
Well-known
M8 it is then.
I have used the M8 for a few years now. First it accompanied my R-D1 and then slowly replaced it completely. The Epson is a special camera to me, but the sensor size was too limiting in the end even compared against the M8. And the sensor size is the one real issue I have with the M8, too.
Meakin
Established
Hello Jamie, I was in the same position just under a year ago.
Be aware of the redline sensor problem. I would either verify with certainty that it is not there before buying, or (as I did) factor it in and be ready to send it to Leica for fixing (not expensive and they do a checkup while they are at it)..Thinking about it, I would be looking for one that has been back to Leica recently. That way at least you know it has been checked over and deemed ready to go to work.
I got lucky and found a chrome version online with less than 1000 clicks for under 800 pounds iirc. but it did need the redline fix.
Good luck!,
Cheers,
/Meakin
Be aware of the redline sensor problem. I would either verify with certainty that it is not there before buying, or (as I did) factor it in and be ready to send it to Leica for fixing (not expensive and they do a checkup while they are at it)..Thinking about it, I would be looking for one that has been back to Leica recently. That way at least you know it has been checked over and deemed ready to go to work.
I got lucky and found a chrome version online with less than 1000 clicks for under 800 pounds iirc. but it did need the redline fix.
Good luck!,
Cheers,
/Meakin
jamiewakeham
Long time lurker
Thanks, both.
I'd not heard of the red line problem - I've read up about the other known issues, such as the coffee stain screen problem.
Is the red line issue visible in the camera's screen or do you need to view files on a monitor? And are Leica still fixing this problem? I'd be buying under a shop's warranty (likely six months) but it'd be nice to know that the manufacturer could still fix this.
I'd not heard of the red line problem - I've read up about the other known issues, such as the coffee stain screen problem.
Is the red line issue visible in the camera's screen or do you need to view files on a monitor? And are Leica still fixing this problem? I'd be buying under a shop's warranty (likely six months) but it'd be nice to know that the manufacturer could still fix this.
Meakin
Established
As far as I know It's a simple pixel remapping that is done at the factory. I have also heard of others getting the sensors replaced as Leica deemed the problem to be outside of acceptable tolerances. Turnaround time for me was just over two weeks (Leica Germany) and everything went very smooth. Got a camera back, that looked and felt totally new. They went to lengths like replacing cosmetically worn bits out of goodwill and for free - not telling me about it, just doing it.
Re. the redline.
Best to view on a monitor, but depending on how severe the problem is - you may be able to see it on the screen. It shows up at higher ISO and/or longer shutter speeds...in my case it showed up at ISO 320 and above.
If you google "Leica M8 redline" lots of info turn up....I'm not saying all M8's have this - just be aware that it is out there.
/Meakin
Re. the redline.
Best to view on a monitor, but depending on how severe the problem is - you may be able to see it on the screen. It shows up at higher ISO and/or longer shutter speeds...in my case it showed up at ISO 320 and above.
If you google "Leica M8 redline" lots of info turn up....I'm not saying all M8's have this - just be aware that it is out there.
/Meakin
jamiewakeham
Long time lurker
How much did the repair cost, Meakin? And whilst I'm asking, anyone know how much they'd charge for a new shutter, if one were to be needed?
Sooty_1
Drive-by shooter
You'll have no trouble finding a much lower shutter count than 30k for your money.
One that's been recently serviced is a good idea, and having a hands on check is well worth it.
I was in a similar position...lots of other kit I just wasn't using, now I use my M8 way more than my digital Nikons, and my film Ms, plus the body and a few lenses easily fits in a tiny bag. I don't think you'd regret it and you could resell it for similar money anyway. IMHO the RD1 is no longer in the same league, though if you like wideangles an M9 would be a better proposition due to its FF.
If you like colour, you'll need ir cut filters for your lenses, so that might need factoring in, but if you can't afford an M9, an M8 will do admirably.
Nick
One that's been recently serviced is a good idea, and having a hands on check is well worth it.
I was in a similar position...lots of other kit I just wasn't using, now I use my M8 way more than my digital Nikons, and my film Ms, plus the body and a few lenses easily fits in a tiny bag. I don't think you'd regret it and you could resell it for similar money anyway. IMHO the RD1 is no longer in the same league, though if you like wideangles an M9 would be a better proposition due to its FF.
If you like colour, you'll need ir cut filters for your lenses, so that might need factoring in, but if you can't afford an M9, an M8 will do admirably.
Nick
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
It is not listed anywhere, but the shutter of the M8 is probably rated at 150.000 actuations. We had one poster on LUF who reported over 300.000..
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
The repair cost for a pixel defect is normally zero .
Eric T
Well-known
I own an M8. I now only use it as an infrared camera (with the appropriate filter).
Nice camera but it is vastly inferior to more modern offerings from Fujifilm, particularly the XT-1.
Nice camera but it is vastly inferior to more modern offerings from Fujifilm, particularly the XT-1.
peterm1
Veteran
Try to save up for an M9.
I have an M8 and while I will most likely keep it (I would lose too much if I sold) I do not think I would buy if I had my time over. I have a number of niggles such as the relatively poor shutter release by comparison with older Leica Ms - the shutter itself is noisy and the release has a touch of crepitus. It simply is not anywhere as smooth as any Leica M I have used before. Another niggle is the finder, which I find a bit too low magnification for good focusing with anything less than perfect eyesight. I struggle even though I have both a magnifier and a diopter adjustment on the finder.
A more problematic "niggle" is that I have found the rangefinder adjustment to "drift" over time and with use. Google M8 rangefinder adjustment and you will find tons of posts. I had to have mine professionally calibrated to fix the issue which for no apparent reason (no bangs, no drops etc) had gotten much much worse - focusing all my lenses about 15 centimetres behind the subject. I think it was Dante Stella who said that this can be expected to occur again with use. At $100 a pop this is not fun and I am not looking forward to it. MY camera repair guy could offer no reason but he acknowledged the problem. There are other "secondary niggles" as well and because of all these and the factor I mention below, I certainly do not use it anywhere near enough - I find there are too many compromises. Which is odd as I loved to use my old M3 and M4P and I think that is due to how these felt in use. But I still use it now and then. And sometimes I even enjoy the experience, but not as much as I should.
I could perhaps forgive everything else, but my main problem is that for a camera that is supposed to be superb in natural light, the sensor of the M8 quite simply is not. I concede it makes lovely images when the light is good and ISO is kept low, but when the ISO needs to creep up or the lighting conditions are poor and you want to make one of those moody shadow and light shots that Leicas are supposed to be famous for -forget it. Sadly with the M8 you are plumb out of luck. You will have blown highlights all over the place and crappy color noise in all the shadow areas. This is because the camera sensor belongs to an earlier era. If I can use this comparison, it is more like my old, old Nikon D70s which performs well to ISO 400 but then becomes problematic. The Leica M8 works to ISO 640 then craps out with heaps of ugly color noise in shadow areas.
These things may not bother you depending on the sort of photography you do. If so go for it. But really the M9 is better. Better still if you cannot afford to spend more $ right now, go for a "faux" Leica by Fuji etc and if you already have Leica glass mount it on that camera with an adapter. (Sorry I know you want a "proper" coupled rangefinder).
You asked for simple advice....this is mine. I am saying this as I have used film Ms and know what they are like. The M8 is not in my opinion up to that standard. Although build quality is excellent, there are too many design and technology compromises that Leica had to make to get a digital M to market after the market for film cameras dried up. It is not a terrible camera, its just not the excellent one that you would expect for the price you must pay for it. The result is that the M9 is what I would regard as the first mature digital M.
I have an M8 and while I will most likely keep it (I would lose too much if I sold) I do not think I would buy if I had my time over. I have a number of niggles such as the relatively poor shutter release by comparison with older Leica Ms - the shutter itself is noisy and the release has a touch of crepitus. It simply is not anywhere as smooth as any Leica M I have used before. Another niggle is the finder, which I find a bit too low magnification for good focusing with anything less than perfect eyesight. I struggle even though I have both a magnifier and a diopter adjustment on the finder.
A more problematic "niggle" is that I have found the rangefinder adjustment to "drift" over time and with use. Google M8 rangefinder adjustment and you will find tons of posts. I had to have mine professionally calibrated to fix the issue which for no apparent reason (no bangs, no drops etc) had gotten much much worse - focusing all my lenses about 15 centimetres behind the subject. I think it was Dante Stella who said that this can be expected to occur again with use. At $100 a pop this is not fun and I am not looking forward to it. MY camera repair guy could offer no reason but he acknowledged the problem. There are other "secondary niggles" as well and because of all these and the factor I mention below, I certainly do not use it anywhere near enough - I find there are too many compromises. Which is odd as I loved to use my old M3 and M4P and I think that is due to how these felt in use. But I still use it now and then. And sometimes I even enjoy the experience, but not as much as I should.
I could perhaps forgive everything else, but my main problem is that for a camera that is supposed to be superb in natural light, the sensor of the M8 quite simply is not. I concede it makes lovely images when the light is good and ISO is kept low, but when the ISO needs to creep up or the lighting conditions are poor and you want to make one of those moody shadow and light shots that Leicas are supposed to be famous for -forget it. Sadly with the M8 you are plumb out of luck. You will have blown highlights all over the place and crappy color noise in all the shadow areas. This is because the camera sensor belongs to an earlier era. If I can use this comparison, it is more like my old, old Nikon D70s which performs well to ISO 400 but then becomes problematic. The Leica M8 works to ISO 640 then craps out with heaps of ugly color noise in shadow areas.
These things may not bother you depending on the sort of photography you do. If so go for it. But really the M9 is better. Better still if you cannot afford to spend more $ right now, go for a "faux" Leica by Fuji etc and if you already have Leica glass mount it on that camera with an adapter. (Sorry I know you want a "proper" coupled rangefinder).
You asked for simple advice....this is mine. I am saying this as I have used film Ms and know what they are like. The M8 is not in my opinion up to that standard. Although build quality is excellent, there are too many design and technology compromises that Leica had to make to get a digital M to market after the market for film cameras dried up. It is not a terrible camera, its just not the excellent one that you would expect for the price you must pay for it. The result is that the M9 is what I would regard as the first mature digital M.
Darthfeeble
But you can call me Steve
Have you handled an M digital? They are the same size as the RD1 give or take a few mm. The ISO range on the M8 isn't any better than the Epson either. I've had both and found the M9 to be superior to the M8 by enough so to make the money difference. Good glass on the Epson will give you everything that good glass on the M8 would.
aizan
Veteran
ditto on saving up for an m9.
or think about the x-pro2 when it comes out.
or think about the x-pro2 when it comes out.
gdi
Veteran
That's not what I was told by Leica US. Last year, they estimated around $175 just to map the pixels in my M8.
Jubb Jubb
Well-known
I'm with Peter, keep saving for an M9. You can have them relatively cheap now at around the 3000 mark.
dotur
od karnevala
Don't buy M8, be it used or even new. Believe me, I've done it twice.
Baby of Macon
Well-known
I agree. The M8 is a very compromised camera and as reflected above, fundamentally, the sensor is just not good enough - even at secondhand M8 prices.
Lss
Well-known
Well, I use the M8 alongside the Sony RX1R (which many think is pretty powerful), and I like the output from them both.
Let's be fair here... if you make a great photo with a M8, it will still be a great photo and no one is going to say "I wish it was made with a M9 though."
That said, it is an outdated camera (so is the M9) by today's standards but that does not mean it is not good. However, IMO, the only reason to buy one is because you absolutely want to use a mechanical rangefinder digital camera and do not want to splurge for a M9. If this isn't the case, there are most likely better options on the market.
That said, it is an outdated camera (so is the M9) by today's standards but that does not mean it is not good. However, IMO, the only reason to buy one is because you absolutely want to use a mechanical rangefinder digital camera and do not want to splurge for a M9. If this isn't the case, there are most likely better options on the market.