Roger Hicks
Veteran
We totally agree on the latter, and on the form. I'm not suggesting for a moment that my research is right and yours wrong: it's a quarter of a century since I wrote A History of the 35mm Still Camera (Focal Press, 1984). Even so, I'd be grateful if you could provide references (ads, reviews) for full diaphragm automation before 1959. As I say, I'm as willing to admit that I wrong as to say I'm right, but I seem to recall nothing earlier...Wayno said:
Cheers,
R.
Abbazz
6x9 and be there!
Sonnar2 said:
Frank, the Praktina was created in 1952 by Siegfried Böhm, the designer of the 1948 Praktica, but it was a high-end "system" camera. It came with interchangeable finders and focusing screens (the prism was not so bad), an optional motor drive, a revolutionary semi-automatic aperture mechanism and a new breech-lock bayonet (similar to the future Canon FD bayonet). It even had an inverted Galilean finder for the true rangefinder nostalgics.
Many American photo reporters from top magazines (Life) were using the Praktina in the 1950s, before they switched en masse to Nikon...
In 1958, the last model of the Praktina series , the Praktina IIA was equipped with full automatic aperture, while the first Pentax model with full automatic aperture was the S3 in 1961.
One last remark: the original Asahiflex was a Japanese copy of the... 1948 Praktica (OK, the copy was better than the original
).Cheers!
Abbazz
Abbazz
6x9 and be there!
Roger Hicks said:
Dear Roger,
The original KMZ Zenit from 1950 (commercially released in 1953) was the smallest. It was equipped with a prism and the body had exactly the same dimensions as the Zorki I Leica clone, with only a small protrusion for the prism and the mirror box.
Cheers!
Abbazz
Sonnar2
Well-known
No way. The Praktica has a front trigger. Probably you mean their forerunner, the Praktiflex. It looks similar, but if you have them side by side, you see they are totally different.Abbazz said:One last remark: the original Asahiflex was a Japanese copy of the... 1948 Praktica (OK, the copy was better than the original
They both have at least one thing in common: They were designed to be quite straight, simple, reliable, not overloaded with functions, lower priced as the Exakta. What I've read about the Wrayflex and Duflex that both were very good designed cameras, loaded with unique solutions and complicated, but don't proved on the market. Same story with the Zunow SLR.
About the Praktina, it's still the same camera basically as the Praktiflex. With the featherwork motor it may have kind of a wink mirror, but is loud as hell. Some 10,000 were build and few hundred motors, meaning that most cameras had less features than any Japanese SLR. They have their true believers in Germany, too, but they were just outdated from the late 1950's on, same as the Exakta and therefore needs to sell cheap, except in the markets where no Japanese cameras were available. I doubt the tale that it was "the first Pro SLR". Most "Pro"s don't switched to SLR until the late 1950's; from LEICA, Rolleiflex or LF cameras. Then they first changed to Pentax S/ Spotmatic like the "LIFE" magazine photographers. NIKON was coming towards the end of the sixties, at the hot phase of Vietnam war. Of course there were a few professionals using Exakta VX before in the early fifties, and maybe even a handfull Praktina SLRs....
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Wayno
Well-known
Roger Hicks said:
Best not to argue with somebody who "wrote the book" on the subject then.
I have a couple of your books but not that one...I thought that some of the Zeiss lenses of the period were automatic, but looking around it seems that you're correct, and they only got to the "semi-auto" stage. Peter Dechert says, "... diaphragms of the lenses made during the Contax F's lifetime did not reopen automatically after the exposure was made". The Zeiss lenses I have have are all pre-set jobs - I haven't tried one of their semi-automatic versions.
The "F" model body works just fine with later automatic lenses - I've used Japanese and German auto lenses with no problem.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Wayno,Wayno said:Best not to argue with somebody who "wrote the book" on the subject then.
I thought that some of the Zeiss lenses of the period were automatic, but looking around it seems that you're correct, and they only got to the "semi-auto" stage. Peter Dechert says, "... diaphragms of the lenses made during the Contax F's lifetime did not reopen automatically after the exposure was made". The Zeiss lenses I have have are all pre-set jobs - I haven't tried one of their semi-automatic versions.
The "F" model body works just fine with later automatic lenses - I've used Japanese and German auto lenses with no problem.
Sorry, I didn't mean it that way: not "I know more than you" but "I looked quite hard and would be (semi-) grateful if you could prove me wrong."
Yes, most (all, I believe) bodies designed for semi-auto lenses worked fine with later full-auto lenses, so in that sense, the bodies were what I would call 'modern' but the system wasn't.
Which is a fairly piddling dispute on my side, but as far as I can, I try to be more interested in knowing the answer than in proving I was right in something I wrote years ago. I've certainly published a fair amount of stuff that I would no longer support fully (or sometimes, at all).
Cheers,
R.
Wayno
Well-known
Roger Hicks said:
Didn't take it that way at all Roger - I'm happy to be enlightened - it was a misconception that had been floating around inside my head. Now I can let go of the hope of finding a nice chrome auto Zeiss lens to match my Pentacon F...
Cheers,
Wayne
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Abbazz,Abbazz said:
I'm 99% sure you are absolutely right about the original Zenit; my only excuse is that I think the ones I quoted are smaller too, though not as small as the Zenit.
I would not be at all surprised to learn that the last Praktina beat Nikon to it as the first with a fully auto diaphragm -- they were VERY underrated cameras, though indeed noisy with the clockwork motor -- but again, could I trouble you for a reference (review or ad)?
I had a Praktina with the motor (the latter bought as 'new, old stock' in NYC) and quite liked it.
Cheers,
R.
Abbazz
6x9 and be there!
Roger Hicks said:
Dear Roger,
The original Praktina in 1952 was the first with a semi-auto diaphragm. Then came the Schneider Auto Xenon for the Exakta in 1954-55, which was touted as a fully automatic lens but is rather a semi-auto. The Meyer Primotar E for the Contax SLR appeared in 1956. The Praktina IIA had lenses with the auto diaphragm feature in 1958, but the auto diaphragm mechanism was still external. The first camera to have an internal 100% automatic diaphragm, as we know it to this day, was the Zunow SLR, which appeared in 1958. The Nikon F didn't appear before 1959.
Here's a quote (sorry, it's in French, but I've been told that you are now fluent in this patois):
Le Praktina original devient dès [19]53 le Praktina FX (synchro modifiée) puis en [19]58 le Praktina IIA. Pour cette ultime version, des objectifs nouveaux, 100% automatiques, ont été créés : Tessar 2,8, Flexon et Pancolar 2.
From Patrice-Hervé Pont, 100 Appareils légendaires, Éditions du Pécari, Anglet 2001, ISBN 2-912848-11-3.
Here's a link to a nice page about Praktina (& Exakta) cameras: http://captjack.exaktaphile.com/praktina/Praktina%20Cameras.htm
Cheers.
Abbazz
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Abbazz
6x9 and be there!
Sonnar2 said:No way. The Praktica has a front trigger. Probably you mean their forerunner, the Praktiflex. It looks similar, but if you have them side by side, you see they are totally different.
.
Frank,
Lots of sources about the creation of the Asahiflex point to the Praktiflex/Praktica as the inspiration source for the designers. Of course, I don't mean that the Asahiflex is a servile copy of the German camera, but I think the general concept was inspired by it. Here are some quotes:
The Asahi designers commenced research and development in 1950 on the project and, a year later, in late 1951, a prototype 35mm single lens reflex camera was ready. This camera was based on the German ‘Praktiflex’ design and was fitted with a waist-level viewfinder and a mirror which rose when the shutter button was pressed. The mirror fell to its viewing position when pressure was released. The mirror could be swung up and down whether or not the shutter was tensioned.
Derek J. White ARPS in SPOTMATIC magazine #32, April 2002
As I had indicated at the other site, the instant-return mechanism on the Praktiflex (1st generation) of 1939 was linked to the shutter release plunger. As it was pushed down, the mirror raised up, and when the shutter release was let go of, the mirror dropped back to its original location. So far as I can determine, the mechanism on the 1954 (15 years later) Asahiflex II worked in the same way. In any case, the Asahi (Heiland in US) Pentax S2/H2 camera, also often cited as the first instant return, had a mechanism that did not in fact return the mirror to its focusing position until the film was advanced. Arguably, this is not 'return'.
JDM von Weinberg on Photo.net
La Asahiflex I (1951) fu il punto di partenza, il modello su cui lavorare per gli sviluppi successivi al fine di superare le limitazioni del momento. Assai interessante ma non particolarmente originale, era ispirata alla Praktiflex II del 1948, con un corpo macchina simile e la stessa gamma di tempi di otturazione.
Free English translation:The Asahiflex I (1951) was the starting point, the model on which to work for subsequent developments in order to overcome the limitations of time. Very interesting but not particularly original, it was inspired by the Praktiflex II of 1948, with a similar camera body and the same range of shutter speeds.
Dario Bonazza, Asahi Optical Historical Club of Italy (AOHC)
The Asahiflex looks more like the 1948 Praktica than your pre-war Praktiflex:
Picture linked from http://www.praktica-collector.de, copyright Mike´s Praktica / Pentacon Dresden Pages
Edit: Even the 50/3.5 Takumar of the Asahiflex looks very much like the diminutive 50/3.5 Tessar of the Praktica.
Cheers!
Abbazz
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Abbazz,Abbazz said:
Thanks for the link and the reference. It is hardly surprising that a lot more research has been done since A History of the 35mm Still Camera, nor that people have turned up information that I missed.
But I'd still be happier with a primary source (contemporary review or advertisement) because sometimes 'facts' are repeated incorrectly, borrowing from incorrect secondary sources. For example, when the book came out, someone from the Science Museum rang me to verify my source for the introduction date of the Sport, which I had to confess was from secondary sources (and which I now know to be highly disputable).
I'd be very surprised if M. Pont were incorrect, but I'd be interested to know where he got his information. Thanks still more for the information about the Zunow, a camera about which I know almost nothing except the name.
Cheers,
Roger
Abbazz
6x9 and be there!
Roger Hicks said:
Dear Roger,
Here's a link to the original manual of the Parktina IIA (in German): http://www.cameramanuals.org/praktica_pdf/praktina_iia.pdf
The paragraph entitled Objektive mit Blendenvorwahl presents the new automatic diaphragm feature (vollautomatischer Blende).
Cheers!
Abbazz
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Abbazz,Abbazz said:
Excellent! Thank you very much indeed!
Cheers,
Roger
Sonnar2
Well-known
First camera with automatic diaphragm: Contax/ Pentacon F, 1956: http://camerapedia.org/wiki?title=Contax_S
There weren't much lenses to support this feature, in that period, though.
Minolta, Pentax, Praktina and Zunow had it available 1958. Minolta fully supported with lenses. Pentax with semiautomatic lenses until 1960. Praktina: ? Zunow: fully supported lenses, but no role on the market...
Minolta SR2 (1958): big and heavy camera, not finely crafted, but first "modern SLR" according to above rules (fully automatic diaphragm and lenses, spring mirror, single no rotating speed dial, prism, thumb lever, rewind crank) - sorry Nikon F...
Abbazz, did you kept in mind that the PRAKTICA and PRAKTIFLEX FX have both no wink mirror and a front trigger ? (different to the Asahiflex I) From first view and technical specs, Asahiflex and Praktiflex are similar. Simply visible fact. But I suggest most of the people telling that the Asahiflex was a KW -flex copy (including book-authors) never had both cameras side by side, or opened both. I know of no primary scource to acknowledge that common legend.
If I had the time (and no film in both cameras) I will strip them to the bones and prove the opposite.
cheers, Frank
There weren't much lenses to support this feature, in that period, though.
Minolta, Pentax, Praktina and Zunow had it available 1958. Minolta fully supported with lenses. Pentax with semiautomatic lenses until 1960. Praktina: ? Zunow: fully supported lenses, but no role on the market...
Minolta SR2 (1958): big and heavy camera, not finely crafted, but first "modern SLR" according to above rules (fully automatic diaphragm and lenses, spring mirror, single no rotating speed dial, prism, thumb lever, rewind crank) - sorry Nikon F...
Abbazz, did you kept in mind that the PRAKTICA and PRAKTIFLEX FX have both no wink mirror and a front trigger ? (different to the Asahiflex I) From first view and technical specs, Asahiflex and Praktiflex are similar. Simply visible fact. But I suggest most of the people telling that the Asahiflex was a KW -flex copy (including book-authors) never had both cameras side by side, or opened both. I know of no primary scource to acknowledge that common legend.
If I had the time (and no film in both cameras) I will strip them to the bones and prove the opposite.
cheers, Frank
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Frank,Sonnar2 said:
Thanks for the Minolta reference.
Were there any fully-auto lenses in Contax/Pentacon F fit in '58? Because auto stopdown will normally operate fully-auto diaphragms too.
Also, what we would today call semi-auto diaphragms were sometimes referred to as 'fully auto' in the 50s; I don't think the Switar on the Alpa 6 was fully auto, for example, but it is described as such in the BJP Almanac review.
Cheers,
Roger
steamer
Well-known
"The Collector's Guide to Japanese Cameras" 500 dollars?, I had no idea. I was working for the book's publisher last year and they cleaned up the stacks and gave me a copy they were going to throw away.
Sonnar2
Well-known
Another camera to mention: Zeiss Contarex, 1960. Most expensive and heaviest SLR but NO fully automatic diaphragm (just semi-automatic like "Auto Takumar" Pentax before 1960...)
have fun, Frank
have fun, Frank
The original Contaflex (SLR), which is generally considered as having been available for sale in 1953, may have had a fixed lens, but it also featured a fully automatic internal lens diaphragm that would stop down for the exposure, and open automatically when the camera was wound on with no other user operation needed to make it function (apart, obviously, from setting the desired f stop).
Cheers
Brett
Cheers
Brett