Tenax II - negative sprockets in the image

[Jerevan]

Bill,

that does not make sense - there is only one spool end. Look at the complete cassette in post 3 and then at the photos with the film on the spool in post number 8 and tell me if you see a difference. 🙂

(Just trying to figure out if there is a mix-up between working and non-working spool, that's all)

 

[M.Hilo]

Thanks a lot sofar, it is very busy here, but I will try to soon answer about the spool . . .

In the mean time, attached an image showing the sprockets

 

[Bill Jones]

M. Hilo,

Your sprocket holes show that your film is lower in the gate on the feed side rather than the take-up side. Try wes loder's suggestion as it addresses this situation.

Bill

 

[wes loder]

Nice camera

Nice camera

Looking at your pictures, I wondering if this the same Tenax ZeissCamera was selling in a package a year or so ago. (?)

Your film is riding too low and out of the guide rails. Of course, that's obvious, but try to move the film up and onto the inner rails before putting on the back. There should be just enough slop in the width of the felt lips to bring the film in alignment. Once the back is on, the outer rails should keep the film where it is supposed to go.
WES

 

[Bill Jones]

Another suggested test

Another suggested test

M. Hilo,

Since you're shooting b&w, I assume you develop it yourself. If that is so, try in a darkroom, removing the film from the makers cassette and winding it into the Contax cassette you own. Wind it on in the same way as it is in the makers cassette. Then load it into the feed side of your Tenax with the Contax take-up spool as the take-up. Shoot the film and see if this corrects the problem. If this corrects the problem then you know the problem is with the film makers cassette. Then try wes loder's method as your go to way to use the Tenax.

Bill

 

[Bill Jones]

Bill,

that does not make sense - there is only one spool end. Look at the complete cassette in post 3 and then at the photos with the film on the spool in post number 8 and tell me if you see a difference. 🙂

(Just trying to figure out if there is a mix-up between working and non-working spool, that's all)

Jerevan,

You're right. The problem is he is showing two different spools. The spool in post 3 is a plastic spool. The cassette also has a plastic spool. The spool in post 8 is a metal spool. His showing two different take-up spools and a cassette is the cause of the confusion. From what I can see the spool in post 8 does not look like a Contax (Tenax) spool.

Thanks for pointing this out.

Bill

 

[Bill Jones]

Take-up spool

Take-up spool

M. Hilo,

The metal spool you show in post 8 maybe part of the problem. Look at the bottom of it. If it does not have the small hole in it for the finger of the locking mechanism, it will not line up proprely and may not seat properly in your camera. Your spool and cassette in post 3 are the correct ones to use.
Bill

 

[Jerevan]

Thanks Bill,

I was not really sure - there was something up - good that you see the same thing as me. 🙂

 

[M.Hilo]

Thanks a lot everyone! Very much appreciated. I will try to have a look at it all tomorrow. If I don't come back right away, it just means I haven't found the time. Part of the problem is that I am unfamiliar with this very camera, and with any other camera that uses these spools.

 

[furcafe]

Thanks, I quoted the thread because it was your post.

Interesting that the online manual on Mr. Butkus' site refers to the plastic spools. I have a couple vintage Contax II manuals that don't mention them (they're also much shorter), so they must be older.

Edit: I see from this thread (http://rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1909731 ) that there is evidence that the plastic spools were introduced as early as 1939-42. I stand corrected. 😱 Wouldn't mind seeing a picture from the book, though!

Furcafe,

I'm the same source as the quoted thread.

The book is in German and a picture of the pages would not confirm that it is from any given book, so if you look on the following page:

www.cameramanuals.org/zeiss_ikon?zeiss_ikon_contax_ii.pdf

(or search "Contax II instruction manual")

Refer to pages 5, 7, 10, 30,32 and 34 for instructions and photos this will show that the plastic spools were available as both take-spool and cassette spool from during the era when Zeiss Ikon (Dresden) made Contax II's. From the 1939 intro date, I would put this as cameras with serial numbers starting with J thru O. Not all these cameras need have these spools as Zeiss Ikon was also using up existing stocks of metal spools.

The camera instruction manual is unfortunately not dated but is from Zeiss Ikon (Dresden) and is not modified with type written pages as late wartime ones were. I would assume no cameras were imported from Jan 1942 onward and this would leave out the O s/n cameras.

Bill

 

[M.Hilo]

Wes (1)
quote: [FONT=&quot]However, modern film magazines are slightly taller above the felt. As a result, the magazines do not seat high enough to bring the film in precise alignment with the film rails. This may be the source of your problem.
I get around this problem by manually shifting the film to the top of the felt gate so that it aligns with the rails. Seems to work. I have not had film spockets show up on my negs.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Wes, I had another look with a roll of FP4. The metal take-up spool works fine: on the right side the film is precisely in between the two "rails". The problem is on the left side, the cassette. I have tried to move up the film as you suggest. But the cartridge is still too low, resulting in the film dropping down on the left side. It makes no difference when I push up the cassette.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Bill (1)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]quote: The serial number dates it from second lot or 1938 as a production release date.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Bill, that is great to know. Ah, my mother was 8 then. Crazy.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Wes (2)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]quote: Looking at your pictures, I wondering if this the same Tenax ZeissCamera was selling in a package a year or so ago. (?)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] Yeap !

Your film is riding too low and out of the guide rails. Of course, that's obvious, but try to move the film up and onto the inner rails before putting on the back. There should be just enough slop in the width of the felt lips to bring the film in alignment. Once the back is on, the outer rails should keep the film where it is supposed to go[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I tried that before, and now again. Doesn't work. Remember that I have only been able to try a recent modern FP4 cassette !
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Bill (2)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]quote: Since you're shooting b&w, I assume you develop it yourself. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]correct, I develop and print (since 1978)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If that is so, try in a darkroom, removing the film from the makers cassette and winding it into the Contax cassette you own. Wind it on in the same way as it is in the makers cassette. Then load it into the feed side of your Tenax with the Contax take-up spool as the take-up. Shoot the film and see if this corrects the problem. If this corrects the problem then you know the problem is with the film makers cassette[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]My problem is I can't close the camera with that cassette. Or am I misunderstanding? [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Bill (3)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]quote: You're right. The problem is he is showing two different spools. The spool in post 3 is a plastic spool. The cassette also has a plastic spool. The spool in post 8 is a metal spool. His showing two different take-up spools and a cassette is the cause of the confusion. From what I can see the spool in post 8 does not look like a Contax (Tenax) spool.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The spool in the left picture of post 3 is the same spool that sits in the cassette in post 3.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Bill (4)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]quote: The metal spool you show in post 8 maybe part of the problem. Look at the bottom of it. If it does not have the small hole in it for the finger of the locking mechanism, it will not line up proprely and may not seat properly in your camera. Your spool and cassette in post 3 are the correct ones to use.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The metal spool does have the proper hole, and I believe it is a genuine spool for this camera. But I will photograph it tomorrow and post it here.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Sofar replying to your kind posts ![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]There are some Zeiss Ikon cassettes on the way, and the friend who lent me the Contax cassette will have some others too.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]As far as I understand it, the camera won't close because of that first cassette we tried. Without that cassette it closes fine.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Or, the camera has something wrong. Perhaps not put together [/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]quite [/FONT]correctly. But I find this hard to believe as I really can't find anything looking incorrect.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Now I must wait for the other cassettes. Unless you have thought of something else.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Michael
[/FONT]

 

[Bill Jones]

Thanks, I quoted the thread because it was your post.

Interesting that the online manual on Mr. Butkus' site refers to the plastic spools. I have a couple vintage Contax II manuals that don't mention them (they're also much shorter), so they must be older.

Furcafe,

It's also the only one I've seen. The number on the cover C2561d E. gives the publication name C2561, revision d and E. for English. Looking at these and referring to Kuc's reference pages (258-259) you can get the revision dates for the German versions of your manuals (English should be close to same date.) Also the date is on the back cover as 638 or 139 for 6/1938 and 1/1939 respectively.

The picture on p 16 shows the original Contax II (ser num Z.50001 - Z.51000) shutter speed knob (100 and 200) and p17 refers to the 250 marking. This is the first manual I saw with this reference. Older ones avoided mentioning the speeds.

The d version was issued at two different dates 6/1938 and 1/1939 so we cannot tell which one introduced the plastic spools. From the availability of the spools in Jan 39 Zeiss Magazine I deduct they were in the USA by mid-Nov 1938.

All that said, like you I always believed that these plastic spools were from the 50's. I don't remember ever seeing a plastic spool in a pre-war Contax that looked like a one-owner.

Bill

 

[Bill Jones]

Cassette and spool

Cassette and spool

M. Hilo,

This is really basic, but I am assuming that you know the cassettes have to be closed when you put the camera back on, otherwise the back will not close. See the Contax instruction book referenced above on how to use cassettes.

Real Contax (Tenax etc) spools were all black either blackened brass or plastic and have a pattern of vertical lines on the axil extension. There were however after-market versions available also. I'm looking forward to seeing your photo of the bottom of the spool.

In the photo of the cassette it appears the inner shell may not be fully seated in the outer shell, but it"s hard to tell from the angle of the shot. Can you also do a side view of the closed cassette? Also I would like to see a darker picture of the back especially showing the take-up side lock.

This seems like quite a problem and I hope we can help you solve it.

Bill

 

[M.Hilo]

Bill,

When I first tried to insert the cassette I did not know this. Before putting any film into the cassette I simply tried closing the camera with cassette inside, which it didn't.
Then my friend came along, who had lent me the cassette in the first place, and he knew this. However, the camera still wouldn't close and that was clearly happening on the side of the cassette.
My friend took that cassette with him as we felt the cassette itself was likely the cause of the problem. I have asked him to send it to me again, so I can photograph it and show you. Obviously it will be good to understand what happened . . .

It is not such a big problem. I just don't get serious with this camera yet until this is solved. Which I am sure, with your great help, it will.
In a sense I even like the sprockets in the image, but I want to be able to chose having them, or not.

All this takes time, we both travel for work. I bought some cassettes that are in the mail to me . . .

 

[wes loder]

Film alinement

Film alinement

Michael:
I am attaching three pictures that might shed some light on your problem. In the first, I show (a little blurred) a Tenax partly loaded with a roll of Kodak Tri-X that probably dates to around 1982 (Yeah, I have a lot of old stuff like this around). It fits between the outer rails with no problem. The second shot shows the same camera with a modern roll of Fuji film loaded. Note that the left (supply) side does not line up with the rails. Spockets will get exposed. In the third shot, the film is forced up to fall inside the rails. Doing this may get the film to feed probably.
Both magazines are the same height and appear identical, but the Tri-X magazine may have a slightly flatter top and its center rise may be flatter as well. This is what allows it to set higher in the feed bay. Different manufacturers may have different standards. You may have to try different types to find on that will feed correctly. I have older manual-load magazines (non-Zeiss) that seat correctly. Zeiss magazines should work. Good luck. WES

 

[M.Hilo]

Thank you Wes, very clear and helpful.

You are precisely showing the problem I have. In the photo shop I tried out a modern rechargeable cassette. No luck. This sunday I will be able to try some more Contax and other old cassettes.

Today I found a dedicated 24X24 negative holder for my Focomat 1C. New in the plastic bag. The shopkeeper checked, he had it since 1971 !!! I found that quite something: that he had it, and that he had the information when he bought it.

 

[M.Hilo]

Not much news from me, except that I tried an old Ilford FP4 cassette after loading it with film. This cassette fits better than the new Ilford cassettes, and my camera closes.
It was still difficult to make the film end up between the two rails. I pushed it upwards as much as I could, following the suggestions here.

Now I am shooting that film. I will develop it by thursday this week. Friday I leave for a 10 day trip . . . which means this thread will quiet. But I will be back !!