Dan Daniel
Well-known
I recently acquire a Super Ikonta IV with the 75mm Tessar lens. After dialing in the focusing, it's giving some very nice results.
The Rolleiflex T model had a revised Tessar lens formulation. It was supposedly an improvement, and the T does have areputation for a crisper look. Looking at the Rolleiflex manufacturing dates, their last 'old' unimproved Tessar model stopped production in 1956. The Rolleiflex T went on sale in 1958.
With a 75mm f/3.5 lens... hmmmmm....
Anyone know if the Super Ikonta IV's Tessar was the improved formulation? There's a two year gap from what I understand of the SI IV- 1956 to 1960?
The Rolleiflex T model had a revised Tessar lens formulation. It was supposedly an improvement, and the T does have areputation for a crisper look. Looking at the Rolleiflex manufacturing dates, their last 'old' unimproved Tessar model stopped production in 1956. The Rolleiflex T went on sale in 1958.
With a 75mm f/3.5 lens... hmmmmm....
Anyone know if the Super Ikonta IV's Tessar was the improved formulation? There's a two year gap from what I understand of the SI IV- 1956 to 1960?
peterm1
Veteran
Not sure if this helps at all
http://www.antiquecameras.net/superikonta.html
And there may be something here (Sorry I do not have the time to read it right now)
http://lenspire.zeiss.com/en/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/03/cln39_en_web_special_tessar.pdf
Do you know the nature of the improvements you are thinking of? These lenses went thru better coatings in this era but there is not much in a Tessar in the way of elements to play with otherwise apart perhaps from improved glass for better correction. However my knowledge is sketchy. I do have a book on Zeiss cameras and lenses so when I have more time will do some research on the subject.
http://www.antiquecameras.net/superikonta.html
And there may be something here (Sorry I do not have the time to read it right now)
http://lenspire.zeiss.com/en/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2016/03/cln39_en_web_special_tessar.pdf
Do you know the nature of the improvements you are thinking of? These lenses went thru better coatings in this era but there is not much in a Tessar in the way of elements to play with otherwise apart perhaps from improved glass for better correction. However my knowledge is sketchy. I do have a book on Zeiss cameras and lenses so when I have more time will do some research on the subject.
CMur12
Veteran
As I recall, the improved Tessar in the Rolleiflex T was supposed to have an element made of lanthanum glass. (I would need to do a little poking around to find the original reference to confirm this.)
Clearly there is some variation between Tessars and Tessar-type lenses. Two examples: Some especially like the rendering of the Schneider Xenar and the lens in the Minolta Autocord TLRs is noted for being especially sharp.
- Murray
Clearly there is some variation between Tessars and Tessar-type lenses. Two examples: Some especially like the rendering of the Schneider Xenar and the lens in the Minolta Autocord TLRs is noted for being especially sharp.
- Murray
Larry H-L
Well-known
Wouldn't the front-cell focusing on the Ikonta make it render differently?
Dan Daniel
Well-known
Good point. I was wondering why they never put a Planar or Xenotar on a folder, and this might be part of it. The larger size might also have been a deciding factor (and lack of market).
My limited understanding of front-cell focusing is that it will hurt sharpness all in all. Maybe the Tessar design has enough forgiveness to make the change in quality to be within tolerances while more complex lens designs can't handle small changes in spacing.
peterm1
Veteran
I had a quick look at the Zeiss Compendium (published by Hove Books). It makes quite a few mentions of Tessars - too many to read through in detail tonight. Instead I focussed only on the chapter on Super Ikontas. In one entry (on p23) on the subject of post war Super Ikonta cameras it stated the SIs were usually distinguished by the best lenses in their camera line up - the Zeiss Opton Tessars and the Schneider Xenars while the cheaper cameras for the most part relied upon the Novar lenses made by Rodenstock. (Perhaps an obvious statement). I note however that a table indicates that some SI "B" cameras seem to have had Novars too.
The book further states that the Tessars are still capable of top class results today (again obvious perhaps). It mentions some of the evolution of the SI line but no mention I can see (at least yet) of changes to the Tessar design. However I did note that the use of Xenar lenses in the Zeiss Ikonta cameras was regarded highly and was advertised and marketed aggressively by Zeiss as an alternative option to their own Tessar design. The use of these Xenars was said in the book to be a significant factor in the company's post war success - they were regarded so highly by purchasers as being superior. I draw the tentative conclusion that this lens might be what you are actually referring to rather than changes to the Tessar lenses. So far as I can tell given the lack of information in the book about Tessar lens changes those lenses seem (??) to have kept prewar optics (other than coating of course).
As something of an aside, one further thing I did pick up in my research is that early in the post war period Zeiss lenses sometimes experienced significant mechanical reliability (not optical) issues due to the rush to get the factory up and running again in the post war period and the consequential need to rely on relatively untrained and unskilled staff in assembly. This got ironed out over time. But the consensus seems to be that there is reason to beware of some early SI lenses which may need repairs because of QA issues during assembly.
The book further states that the Tessars are still capable of top class results today (again obvious perhaps). It mentions some of the evolution of the SI line but no mention I can see (at least yet) of changes to the Tessar design. However I did note that the use of Xenar lenses in the Zeiss Ikonta cameras was regarded highly and was advertised and marketed aggressively by Zeiss as an alternative option to their own Tessar design. The use of these Xenars was said in the book to be a significant factor in the company's post war success - they were regarded so highly by purchasers as being superior. I draw the tentative conclusion that this lens might be what you are actually referring to rather than changes to the Tessar lenses. So far as I can tell given the lack of information in the book about Tessar lens changes those lenses seem (??) to have kept prewar optics (other than coating of course).
As something of an aside, one further thing I did pick up in my research is that early in the post war period Zeiss lenses sometimes experienced significant mechanical reliability (not optical) issues due to the rush to get the factory up and running again in the post war period and the consequential need to rely on relatively untrained and unskilled staff in assembly. This got ironed out over time. But the consensus seems to be that there is reason to beware of some early SI lenses which may need repairs because of QA issues during assembly.
Don't quote me, but I think that years ago the composition of the T's Tessar glass came up in discussions on the Rollei list, and, if my recollection is correct, it was suggested that it did not contain any lanthanum. You'd have to check the archives for more details, sorry.
hanskerensky
Well-known
And that was also the reason Zeiss Ikon used the Schneider Xenar lenses at that time. They simply had no or not enough production capacity for Tessars at Oberkochen.
btw The article of Bernd K.Otto in Photodeal IV/2004 (German) does not mention any re-design of the Tessar formula for the SI IV during its production.
Dan Daniel
Well-known
Thanks for the various inormation and insights. Peter M, it is not the Xenar to whci I refer. One of the discussed features of the Rolleiflex T, made from 1956 forward, was a reformulation of the Tessar design. I have only used a T for a short time and wasn't blown away, but I do know that lens formulations change. Such as the Minolta Autocord being a 'Tessar-type' design, but known for having a bit more bite than the contemporaneous Zeiss Tessar.
One thing interesting about your information is that probably the best Tessar-type lens I have used was a Xenar from 1949-50, installed on a Rolleiflex. So I am not alone in finding these lenses special!
Brett, I am always heitant to go into the rollei group archives. Too many angels dancing on the heads of pins! I would tend to think that adding lanthanum glass would lead to some significant design changes beyond a simple 'reformulation.'
I have read that Zeiss's post-war problems led to the failure of the 2.8 Tessar Rolleiflex. Before the war, Rollei was pushing Zeiss to improve the lenses and were hesitating to release a camera using the 2.8 Tessar because they didn't meet their standards. The war stopped devlopment of that model. After the war they sent the existing lenses off for coating, a new technology, but didn't keep track of the lens sets. Matched sets were critical at that edge of what was possible with the lenses, and for some reason Rollei went ahead and released models with flawed lenses. Interestingly, I had a later model 2.8 Tessar Rolleiflex and the lens was perfectly fine.
Thanks for the note on the Otto article, Hans. By now I am heading towards considering the Super Ikonta IV to be a 'standard' Zeiss Tessar until I find information otherwise. The front cell focusing and the folder design, with the lower standards of the target market, probably wouldn't have justified a better lens.
One thing interesting about your information is that probably the best Tessar-type lens I have used was a Xenar from 1949-50, installed on a Rolleiflex. So I am not alone in finding these lenses special!
Brett, I am always heitant to go into the rollei group archives. Too many angels dancing on the heads of pins! I would tend to think that adding lanthanum glass would lead to some significant design changes beyond a simple 'reformulation.'
I have read that Zeiss's post-war problems led to the failure of the 2.8 Tessar Rolleiflex. Before the war, Rollei was pushing Zeiss to improve the lenses and were hesitating to release a camera using the 2.8 Tessar because they didn't meet their standards. The war stopped devlopment of that model. After the war they sent the existing lenses off for coating, a new technology, but didn't keep track of the lens sets. Matched sets were critical at that edge of what was possible with the lenses, and for some reason Rollei went ahead and released models with flawed lenses. Interestingly, I had a later model 2.8 Tessar Rolleiflex and the lens was perfectly fine.
Thanks for the note on the Otto article, Hans. By now I am heading towards considering the Super Ikonta IV to be a 'standard' Zeiss Tessar until I find information otherwise. The front cell focusing and the folder design, with the lower standards of the target market, probably wouldn't have justified a better lens.
someonenameddavid
Well-known
But the A,B,C,D super Ikonta models had front cell focussing, the III and IV were unit focus, hence the change in rangefinder design.
Dan Daniel
Well-known
I have a Super Ikonta IV and it is front cell focusing. Maybe we are talking about different cameras?
peterm1
Veteran
"One of the discussed features of the Rolleiflex T, made from 1956 forward, was a reformulation of the Tessar design."
I have not read about the Tessars used in the Rolleiflex only in the section on Super Ikonta cameras. As indicated there were heaps of references to Tessar in the index - too many to read in one sitting. Its possible that there is some reference to a reformulation of Tessars in one of those other references.
I have not read about the Tessars used in the Rolleiflex only in the section on Super Ikonta cameras. As indicated there were heaps of references to Tessar in the index - too many to read in one sitting. Its possible that there is some reference to a reformulation of Tessars in one of those other references.
CMur12
Veteran
According to my notes, it was Alex Pearlman who said that the Tessar in the Rolleiflex T had been reformulated and that it had an element of lanthanum glass. It appears, however, that not all are in agreement with this.
- Murray
- Murray
hanskerensky
Well-known
There is 1 line of text in the book of Claus Prochnow, Rollei Report 2, about that Tessar on the Rolleiflex T on page 407 :
"Als Objektiv diente ein Tessar 3,5/75mm neuer Rechnung aus Oberkochen"
Which translates to :
"The Lens was a Tessar 3.5/75 of new computation from Oberkochen" .
So Zeiss did re-formulate the Tessar for the Rolleiflex T but alas no information about the kind of glass that was used.
steveyork
Well-known
Compared to pre-war folders the Tessar on the Super Ikonta IV is coated. And as the coating improved, so did the results.