That nasty Summicron virus...

S

Stu :)

Guest
I think I'm coming down with it!

Being a student of optics and having passion for precision of LF photography... and going 'oohhh-arrr' some lovely photographs recently that where shot on both 35mm and 50mm Summicrons, I am now starting to think about replacing my CV 35mm/2.5 Pancake and Nikkor C 50mm/2 with 'crons.

So what's your experience with Summicrons?
Should I buy LTM or get M-mounts and trade the Bessa Rs for an M mount?

Any other advice and/or ideas would be gladly appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

Stu :)
 
Summicrons

Summicrons

Stu, I think almost any 'Cron will do.
Personally, I have a collapsible one in M-mount (bayonet), but I also use LTM Summitar.
I think the collapsible M-mount 'Cron will be OK - it's a bit less contrasty than the newer ones, but it definitely has that "Summicron" fingerprint.
You don't have to sell the R body if you get one in LTM mount. Be careful, though, older 'Crons do have a problem with hazing and scratched front coating, and one with mint coating won't be cheap, I guess...

However, my Summicron has seriously damaged front coating, but still takes great photos under controlled conditions (i.e. no strong light sources in the frame).
Check out my gallery - older B&W stuff. Street shots were mostly taken with the Summicron.

Denis
 
I have used the "Type I Rigid Summicron" in M-Mount a good bit, and am always happy with it. Again, the '50s Leica lenses are subject to cleaning marks as the coatings were "softer" than the competition. Mine is in good shape, and I had it CLA'd more for focus and aperture operation. I will be comparing it with the late '60s vintage Summicron 6-element design as soon as the M2 is back from repair.

My Summicron Folder, Type I Rigid in M-Mount
 
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I had the same version Brian now does, and I liked it. Scanned some of the negatives a couple weeks ago and though how wonderful they were for the sharpness.

Get the M mount. With CZ lenses coming out for it RSN, you'll be glad you did.
 
For the camera, I would say get an M mount.

With respect to the lens I've had two current 50mm Summicrons and my experience was not a happy one with either. Both lenses had different faults that necessitated a return. Both also had loose aperture rings that blew around in the wind, and both had loose fitted sun hoods. On top of all that, I found them to be painfully sharp and cool in color rendition. I'll tell you, I was not impressed. I ended up with a current Elmar-M 50/2.8 which IMHO is a much more preferable lens.

I too have a CV 35/2.5 P1, and I am not thinking about replacing it with a Leica lens. The CV is simply awesome, and that includes the OOF side of the lens too. I can't imagine that a different lens would make the pictures I have taken with that lens any better. Of course lens choice is a very personal thing, and I have the same feelings you have but about another lens, the Jupiter-8. I am currently struggling with whether I should get one of those or not… :) Links below are to a couple of shots in my gallery with the Elmar-M and the CV if you are interested in seeing pics:

Elmar-M 50/2.8

CV Color-Skopar 35/2.5 P1
 
Well, I jumped into the deep end of the pool over the past few months and I am the proud owner of a 35 and a 50 Summicron. Both the penultimate versions. I agree that the look of other lenses, the 50 Nokton and 35 Ultron particularly in my mind, is excellent, but their is a different character to the Summicrons. Perhaps not better, that is a personal taste issue, just different, and right for me.

With the 35 pay attention to the alignment of the front ring as in the most recent 2 versions it becomes loose and rotates. It won't necessarily effect the image quality, but in the worst case scenerio the elements can go out of alignment. The cause is, well they glue it on in the manufacturing process (yes Leica went to a glue on thier signiture lens) and a functionally well designed, poorly executed lens hood. The hood is too hard to get on and off.
 
I can't believe that Leica went to GLUE on retaining rings!!!

None of my '50s lenses, or '40s, or '30s, Leitz glass show problems of loose rings. The lens that I picked up from Jeff is perfect; probably late '60s or early '70s. If they were worried about it why didn't they go to Set Screws like NIKON!

But anyway... The Elmar is a great lens. My Summicron is from 1957, is the older 7-element design, is solidly built, and renders a very sharp image. The color rendition is on the slightly-warm to neutral side.

I almost forgot to add that a student of optics would never let go of the Nikkor-HC 5cm F2 in LTM but would just buy a 7-element Summicron to compare it with... A Sonnar copy vs a Summicron. Then you need a Xenon formula Canon lens.
 
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Thanks for all your answers so far.

One of the main problems I've been having is getting my Nikkor 5cm/2 B&W prints to "Sing", so-to-say. Even the skulduggery trick of lith then normal development doesn't help.

With the photographs that made me go 'oohhh-arrr' I instantly asked the photographer what she did and asked for entire recipe. She uses Fuji Neopan film, developed in X-Tol and where printed on Forte fiber based, multi-grade warm tone paper souped in Ilford's Multigrade Dev (although I still reckon that Fotospeed's DV10 is much better). I love Neopan films, use X-Tol 50% of the time and print 80% of B&W work on the same paper. Only difference I can work from a process of elimination is the lens. She sports a pair of Summicrons (I doubt very much her M6 body has anything to do with it).

One thing that bothers me is my $40 90mm/4 Elmar still raises it's two fingers at the gwad-knows-what-I-paid-for-it Nikkor 5cm/2 when it comes to looking at the proof sheet and/or 6x4 work prints.

I also included the query about the replacement of CV 35mm Pancake mainly from the point of view of "Why not kill two birds with one stone" and it would be brilliant to have two primary lenses in different focal lengths giving a similar final appearance.
Although the CV Pancake lens surprises me more than I'm use too, the photos just jump off the proof sheet and magically become beautiful 12x16s before I know it. The only time the Pancake throws in the towel is with Kodak HIE infra-red.

As a student of optics I'd love to have both, but the key word here is student, meaning lack of money. One will replace the other unfortunately.

Stu :)

Hmmm... upgrading to an M-mount body?... shall go with a M4-2, M4-P, R2a, Hexar RF... aarrggh more angst, I'm going to go hide under my bed for now.
 
Ohhh Yeah.... I remember Student.

You should be able to geta good bit for the Nikkor 5cm F2 in LTM. You should be able to get a type I rigid Summicron for "about" the same amount.

If you can get a good price for the LTM Bessa R, go for an M-Mount version of the Summicron and a used R2 or a "user" M3 or M2. The original Collapsible Summicron in LTM has a softer coating than later versions, and is usually affected by more cleaning marks. Rigid LTM's are a fortune. If you can find a really clean LTM collapsible, it will go for a premium. I have been looking for one for a while; they (collapsible) seem to go for $100 more than the same lens in M-mount.
 
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the Nikkor 5cm F2 LTM is neither cheap, nor is the design similar to a summicron. It's a modified prewar Zeiss Sonnar design (the slower one with 6 glasses in 2 groups)

I personally am a fan of the Zeiss (i.p. Sonnar) lenses but it's a hard task to find a non-frontring-faked Russian Jupiter in these days... (not said all Russian Jupiters be bad lenses)

I have a very sharp 1.5/50 Canon from ~1955 LTM which quality is comparable to the best 1950's Zeiss, Leica or Nikkor lenses, and was a cheaper buy! I wouldn't allege it's better than a Summicron. First, the Summicron is always an f/2 lens, designed for smallest weight and best performance, not high speed. More important, Summicrons were designed in the late 1950's, beginning 1960's and significantly improved since then. You probably will get something extra for paying 5x the price for a good used 1950's Japanese lens.

In case of the new Voigtlander lenses, the advantage will be *very* small, if barely visible. That's Leica's crux... Next one is, coming new Zeiss lenses soon builded by Cosina...

For a student, try to get one of these rare so called "Japanese Summicrons" once produced by Konica, Minolta, Canon... hard to find as well :)

see one of them at
http://www.taunusreiter.de/Cameras/Canon_RF.html

have fun shooting, Frank
 
With the photographs that made me go 'oohhh-arrr' I instantly asked the photographer what she did and asked for entire recipe. She uses Fuji Neopan film, developed in X-Tol and where printed on Forte fiber based, multi-grade warm tone paper souped in Ilford's Multigrade Dev (although I still reckon that Fotospeed's DV10 is much better). I love Neopan films, use X-Tol 50% of the time and print 80% of B&W work on the same paper. Only difference I can work from a process of elimination is the lens.
Click to expand...

I don't want to rain on your parade, Stu, but there are still variables that you haven't ruled out other than "Summicron magic":

  • Oohh-arrr's rangefinder may be calibrated more accurately than yours.
  • Oohhh-arrr's eyesight may be better than yours, permitting more accurate focusing.
  • Oohhh-arrr may be better than you are at holding the camera steady, unless the photos you were comparing are all made with very heavy tripods.

I can think of more, too, but that's enough for now. I'm not saying not to go out and buy a Summicron; I'm only saying that you still run the risk of learning that the magic lies elsewhere...
 
Hate to dry your rain up... but "Oohh-aarr" as since lent me her 50mm 'cron and the Neopan 400 proof sheet is radiating right now... screaming "print me!". I've also been told that the older Summitar formula agrees well with B&W soup'd in Rodinal.

For now the CV 35mm Pancake ain't going anywhere, just recently done some 16x12 prints enlarged from Kodak HIE and Neopan 1600 @ 640. Very pretty and the bokeh on the IR prints is magic.

Stu :)
 
Mate, just buy the 'cron and be done with it. Stop agonising.
After all, I owe my 'cron addiction to this site - it was Brian Sweeney (I think) who said to me "friends don't let firends not buy summicrons"
I have 2 of the damn things now. Lovely lenses.

Oh, and the 50 Summitar you mention is absolutely lovely as regards sharpness and bokeh, too. Beautifully soft and "classic"

I hate Leica's.......you either get it or you don't, but if you do they are a serious addiction once you start......

tim
 
Stu :) said:
Hate to dry your rain up... but "Oohh-aarr" as since lent me her 50mm 'cron and the Neopan 400 proof sheet is radiating right now... screaming "print me!".
Click to expand...

If a Summicron is so magical that the difference is visible on proof sheets, then I guess I'd better start looking for one too!

Off to eBay to put up one of my kidneys...
 
> - it was Brian Sweeney (I think) who said to me "friends don't let firends not buy summicrons"

My work here is done.

The Summicron really is sharp. I have the Type I Rigid Summicron (7 element) and the later Type 2 (? depends on what site you trust, this from KBcamera) which is 6 elements. Both are very sharp, BUT in my case the Type I is sharper/lower contrast and the 2nd close, but higher contrast. I think it was the late '60s and Leica was taking on the Japanese lenses with their higher contrast.

If you shoot mainly B&W, go for the old.
 
I now forsee my CV 21mm purchase being pushed back again...

Time to try out the proven RFF diet of cookies and quiting smoking.

Stu :)
 
Glad my Barcelona shot helped make a choice! :)

Now... I have a very mild case of Summiluxitis. But then, again, I am the lucky owner of three of these lenses (albeit one Japanese), and, while my eye isn't quite good at telling anything about the glass signature (I wouldn't know how to read it), I'm simply fascinated with the particular, say... not glow, but the area between sharpness and OOF. Not the bokeh, but a curious effect I've seen in some of my Scala shots.

So... I'm not free from the syndrome. As some of you may recall, I had a bad case recently and got my long 90/2 out of it.

It hasn't left the camera since it arrived... :D

Rover, congratulations on your combo! I'm sure it was worth the wait! ;)
 
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