Pirate
Guitar playing Fotografer
Thanks for all the replies. I think Distilled water wins for my needs.
The best Water for mixing your Developer?
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x-ray
Veteran
I trust Kodak knows more about their products than you do plus I majored in organic chemistry in college and have a very good handle on processes particularly after forty five plus years of doing them. I ran controlled E3, C22, C41 and E6 lines for years.
jawarden
Well-known
Tap water, unfiltered. Never a problem. My final rinse is always with distilled and a little ilfotol though, as tap water can leave spots.
newsgrunt
Well-known
Any lab I've ever worked in was tap and never had issues whatsoever. B/w or colour. We'd run test strips daily but more for quality control of chemistry life/exhaustion etc..
My past experiences suggests distilled water isn't necessary for 99% of b/w chemistry in home use.
My past experiences suggests distilled water isn't necessary for 99% of b/w chemistry in home use.
x-ray
Veteran
In the ektachrome processes the first developer is basically a traditional MQ developer if I remember correctly. Monitoring and replenishing restores the active ingredients destroyed in the reduction / oxidation process of reducing the silver halide to metallic silver. The color developer is very complex and very sensitive to PH changes. Again replenishing restores products that are oxidized and by adding sulfuric acid or sodium hydroxide the normal PH is maintained. Too acid and you film goes blue and too alkalin it goes yellow.
All silver processes are typical reduction / oxidation processes. If you reduce the silver halide to metallic silver the developing agent is oxidized.
There is most likely some PH buffering in the color developer to help maintain a more constant PH during the process.
The other steps other than the bleach are fairly straight forward and fool proof the bleach is critical in that it must be in an oxidized state to work. Bubbling air from an aquarium air pump is all that's needed.
One thing that should be avoided is the use of deionized water. Deionizing is not distilling and it lowers the PH which can alter developing results.
All silver processes are typical reduction / oxidation processes. If you reduce the silver halide to metallic silver the developing agent is oxidized.
There is most likely some PH buffering in the color developer to help maintain a more constant PH during the process.
The other steps other than the bleach are fairly straight forward and fool proof the bleach is critical in that it must be in an oxidized state to work. Bubbling air from an aquarium air pump is all that's needed.
One thing that should be avoided is the use of deionized water. Deionizing is not distilling and it lowers the PH which can alter developing results.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Chris,
No he didn't. That's the standard advice from Kodak. You may have your own opinions, but, as pointed out elsewhere by x-ray, Kodak almost certainly knows more about their products than you do. Likewise Ilford -- and guess what advice they give.
Of course there are some kinds of tap water or well water that are not good, especially if they've run through iron pipes, but for the most part, if it's potable, it's OK for mixing dev. It's often a good idea to strain out lumps, though: the Paterson Water Filter is very good for this. See http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/mt paterson water filter.html
Cheers,
R.
sevo
Fokutorendaburando
In general they'll use a particle filter, to prevent little bits of grit embedding in the gelatin and as iron or copper particles from the installation may interact with developers and fixers.
I knew one lab with quite hard well water that de-mineralized their wash water, but even there I don't think they did so with the water used to mix the chemicals - the ion exchanger cylinder was obviously attached to the wash tank itself, not their general water supply.
Indeed it often is considered harmful, as there already are calcium compensating additives and pH buffers in all ready-mix chemistry kits - combining these with distilled water may soften the emulsion and can affect the activity of the developer.
leicapixie
Well-known
Tap water.i allow it to stand a day or two, lowers PH level. Idea from Milady and her aquarium. Filtered, filtered..
Pirate
Guitar playing Fotografer
Hmmm....
But how does letting tap water stand for a few days lower the PH?
But how does letting tap water stand for a few days lower the PH?
jtm6
Well-known
The chlorine will probably be gone after a few days if you leave it standing in an open container inside. It might be accelerated if it is outside in daylight and/or if you use an air stone. I'm not a chemist but I think adding chlorine will raise the Ph (more alkaline), whereas not adding it or removing it brings the Ph back down.
However, I'm not sure letting tap water stand will lower the trace quantities of caffeine, estrogen, anti-psychotic medicines, and all the other fun chemicals that tap water contains now.
rlouzan
Well-known
I use distilled water for B&W developers and tap water for color chemistry.
Regards,
Robert
Regards,
Robert
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
I've seen SIGNIFICANT differences in my films developed in tap water in different parts of the country. Using distilled water made those variations go away. Businesses lie to customers every day, and in this case, most people do not move around enough for them to see regional water quality differences.
If you test your developing in your local water and arrive at a developing time that works, then you'll have no problems using tap water. The problem comes in if you move around a lot, or if you're giving developing advice to others around the world, as I'm often asked to do. In that case, consistent repeatable results are only possible with distilled water.
kokoshawnuff
Alex
I'm not experienced or good enough to take chances and know what went wrong. That's why I try to make things as consistent as possible, therefore I use distilled water for every chemical and the final rinse
Teuthida
Well-known
If tap water is good enough for PICTO Paris Bastiile (it is) It's good enough for me.😛
Sparrow
Veteran
... the type of water used for the chemicals is one of the last things I would worry about, anything dissolved in water that is suitable for human consumption is going to be at homeopic levels of dilution, how on earth could it have any effect on the development of the negatives?
Anyone getting variable results should really look elsewhere for the culprit, as it's likely to be sloppy procedure in another part or their process
Anyone getting variable results should really look elsewhere for the culprit, as it's likely to be sloppy procedure in another part or their process
ChrisN
Striving
rlouzan
Well-known
Stewart,
I remember reading an old Shutterbug article by Otha P Spencer, in which he mentioned tracing the problem of completely blank negatives to the use of tap water. Turned out the water utility company added a little something to the H2O ... 😱
By the by - the use of distilled water solved the problem.
Regards,
Robert
I remember reading an old Shutterbug article by Otha P Spencer, in which he mentioned tracing the problem of completely blank negatives to the use of tap water. Turned out the water utility company added a little something to the H2O ... 😱
By the by - the use of distilled water solved the problem.
Regards,
Robert
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Chris,
So have many of us. But whether you use distilled or tap water, you'd be a fool to take anyone else's recommendation on faith. If you're going to test when you move, or change films, or if you're asking for recommendations... Well, you have to test anyway, regardless of anyone's recommendation, or what water you use.
'Lie' is FAR too strong a word. He was not lying. He was giving (arguably) the best, most realistic advice. If you want to give other advice, fine. Just don't call someone who disagrees with you a liar, unless you know a lot more about the subject than the people who design and sell the chemicals. Which, with all due respect, I don't think you do.
Cheers,
R.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
Chris, water contains the things he mentioned because people often pour medicines and other chemicals in the drain. Some people even flush old pills down the toilet. Its illegal (in the USA) and stupid to do so, but a lot of people do it. Wastewater treatment doesn't remove stuff like that, sewage treatment systems are made to remove feces and such, not drugs and chemicals.
Treated sewage gets put in the local river, which is often the source of drinking water. Drinking water is filtered and treated to kill disease-causing micro-organisms, but is not so effective at removing chemicals.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
Roger, I have worked 'real jobs' for major corporations in the not-too-distant past. I can assure you that businesses lie to customers routinely. Every day. Sometimes it is deliberately done to mislead, other times it is accidental (the customer service or sale person just doesn't know his product well), but it happens. In the past, I worked for several retailers, and we were told to lie to customers all the time. That is one of the reasons I quit working for others, it bothered me morally to live that way.
While you may very well get perfect results with your tap water, and many others will too, the fact remains that my advice to use distilled is correct. No one who takes my advice will get bad results from doing so. Using tap water is a gamble; it'll probably work, but the developing times you see in the manufacturer's info may need changed, and the times given by people like me who have tested materials may not work unless you use distilled water. Why bother with all that hassle to save the pittance that distilled water costs? Distilled costs 97 cents a gallon where I live. My time and my images are worth far more, even to someone like me who hasn't got a lot of money to spend.
I don't doubt Kodak told someone that tap water is fine. It probably is most of the time, but the only way to guarantee results is to use distilled water. I've verified this through extensive testing.
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