The "big" leap

[Unregistered]

Hi all,

I am just beginning to learn about rangefinders and have decided to go straight to the source for help - experienced rf users!

First off, I am an slr user. I shoot a canon A2 in combination with 24mm 2.8, 50mm 1.8, and 100mm 2.0. This summer I inted to travel throughout europe and have decided that a smaller camera would be better. The big slr is great, but (even when shooting here at home) I find it to be very obtrusive: it gathers way too much attention. In a travel situation, I think this would make me a target for theft and also inhibit my picture-taking as an "observer." So, looks like a rangefinder should be perfect!

While that decision was easy, deciding which rf is a little more tricky. I have been reading (on the internet) as much as possible about different models/companies/features/etc. but am still lost. After all, I have never even peered through one before! So I'm hoping that maybe you can help me narrow down my choices (in terms of camera and glass).

Here are my criteria:
-relatively cheap (i'm a student......) roughly $200 Canadian.
-size does not matter. After an slr kit, anything will feel small.
-manual control
-ease of use
-availability. I'm assuming used through ebay might be the only way to find such a creature?
-Good/fast glass. Obviously not up to leica pricepoint, but something still sharp and contrasty.
-Lens. Removable or fixed? Focal length(s)?

Okay, hopefully this isn't way too much to ask. But atleast it should get the ball rolling : ) Any help would be great and I will add more detail if i've missed anything.

Thanks a bunch, Andrew

 

[iMacfan]

Firstly, let me say that I am far from the most experienced person who could answer this, but as a student who is in the middle of sorting out a rangefinder kit, I might be of some help.

Now, you will realise that rangefinders, both vintage and new, are having a comeback, which makes all the well known names (e.g. Leica) cost a fortune. This means that there is only one option if you want an interchangable lens rangefinder : The russians. They can be divided up into the contax mount and leica thread mount ones. I'd recommend that you plump for the LTM ones, as many more lenses have been and are made for them. They do, of course have their pitfalls and can be unreliable and crudely made, but a good one will stand up to any of todays plastic p+s cameras.

Using a currency converter, 200CDN seems to be roughly 80 UK pounds, which isn't too much. If you look hard and are lucky on eBay, you should be able to pick up a Zorki 4K with a Jupiter 8, a cheap light meter and another lens in non-mint condition for this. The Zorki 4K is probably the best LTM russian rangefinder, as it is comparatively recent, has a film wind lever as opposed to thumbwheel and was made in large numbers so as to be outside collector territory. The Jupiter8, is a copy of the Zeiss f2 50mm Sonnar, and if in good condition is as sharp as anything this side of modern Leica glass.

Plumping for a fixed lens rangefinder gives you far more options, with the ability to demand a bit more quality. These are three possibilities (of many).

1. Canonet G111QL
The best of a long line of well built, compact Canon rangefinders. Comes with an excellent fixed 40mm f1.7 lens. Loads quickly and is pretty small. This does have auto exposure, which is shutter priority, and there is a pure manual mode.

2. Olympus XA
The original (and better) template for the mju/epic. Slower f2.8 35mm lens, which is said to be pretty sharp, but the body is very small. The best feature (for me) is the apeture priority. I'd love to have one!

3. Rollei 35
I know that this isn't really a rangefinder, but it is tiny, well built and quirky enough to appeal to rangefinder nuts. Make sure you get one with a Tessar or Sonnar(may be too expensive). Ask me in a week or so when I have the first roll of film back from my new one with the Tessar. You might not be able to get a mint one for your budget (mine is far from mint), but these work after a great deal of abuse. The benefit of this is complete manual control - the meter is separate.

Hope this helps, and keep us informed of what you do,

David

 

[strangedoctor]

First, search the archives of this forum since there is a lot of information about this subject there. It's been discussed many times.

I've used the Olympus XA. While it has a great lens, it is quite junky, closer to a point-and-shoot, and mine broke after a few months.
Maybe look for other fixed-lens 1970's stuff.

I always recommend the new Voigtlanders. The lenses are superb. At bare minimum ($50-$75) you could get a Bessa L (http://www.cameraquest.com/voigtbl.htm), which is like a modern Leica from the 1920's, and a 35mm lens, finder. I love mine -- simple, although you must really stick to wide angles since there's only scale focussing.

On my travels I always brought this with my M6, 28mm + 50mm lenses. Small and unobtrusive. SIMPLE, SIMPLE, SIMPLE, SIMPLE, SIMPLE, SIMPLE, SIMPLE, SIMPLE,SIMPLE, SIMPLE, SIMPLE, SIMPLE,SIMPLE, SIMPLE, SIMPLE, SIMPLE.

 

[iMacfan]

At bare minimum ($50-$75) you could get a Bessa L, which is like a modern Leica from the 1920's, and a 35mm lens, finder.

How can you get that kit for that price?

 

[sherp]

Thank you for the help so far guys,

Your input brings up a few more questions/thoughts. A rangefinder without a built in meter would be too much of a pain, for travelling especially, I think. I have noticed that some rfs have ttl metering while others do not. Does this make much of a difference? I will be shooting b&w neg. film and colour slide film. I am worried that the slide film might be too difficult to shoot with an "iffy" meter. Am I wrong in thinking this?

 

[iMacfan]

Slide film will indeed be the hardest to shoot without an accurate meter. You won't get TTL metering in a '70s compact rangefinder, only in the Leica M5 or later, and the Cosina Voigtlanders. The best you can hope for in the compact RFs is ATL (above the lens metering), where there is a seperate light sensor which is within the filter ring of the lens, so it automatically compensates for filters and has a very similar angle of view as the actual lens.

 

[ZeissFan]

A budget of C$200 is a bit limiting. You're probably looking and something without interchangeable lenses and most likely used.

The folding Retinas and the Retina IIIS are very nice cameras and might fall within your budget. A good condition Retina IIa is an excellent choice.

Other possibilities: Voigtlander Vito II or IIa, a 1970s-era rangefinder (lots of choices, mostly Japanese) and an Olympus Pen F -- a very slim half-frame SLR. Ultra-cool camera.

I might lean toward either a Retina IIa, IIc or IIIc. Both have excellent 50mm f/2.0 lenses. The IIc/IIIc can use angle and telephoto lenses. Downside of anything from eBay: Most will need some routine service.

 

[strangedoctor]

I meant $75 for the Bessa L body. You'll still need finder and lens.

Try one of those Olympus 35s if you must have a rangefinder.

 

[That Guy]

Hi Sherp, and welcome to the board. I just wanted to give a word of note on the 70's era fixed lens cameras. I've bought two from eBay hoping to get a good deal on a first rangefinder. The Yashica GSN had a busted meter which I had hoped to get fixed, but it consequently fell from about 6 feet, so a moot point (no worries, it was ten bucks). But it took a long since discontinued mercury-cell battery. The Minolta Hi-Matic 9 I bought also takes a mercury-cell, though a different size.

Yashica Guy has a great website and sells a battery adapter for a few dollars that fits the Electro "G" Series cameras. It worked perfectly for me. A great RF patch on that camera, BTW.

So be advised that you might have some battery finagling to deal with on the older cameras.

 

[That Guy]

Okay after posting my last replay, I couldn't help but look for a "replacement" Yashica for myself and I came across this on eBay.

I mention it because it has some of the accessory lenses included to give it telephoto and wide-angle capabilities. Maybe someone else will chime in with an opinion of it.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

Accessory lenses on a Rangefinder, ie front element wide-angle and telephoto, are very slow to use on a rangefinder. You must focus, read the scale off of the normal lens, and then reset the distance using the distance scale on the wide/tele lens. This includes lenses that screw into the filter mount, like the Yashica GSN, and that replace the front element, like the Retina IIIc.
The Russian cameras, like a Kiev 4, can be bought with lenses for your price. But reliability can be an issue. Buy from someone who has checked out the camera and has shot film through it.

The Kodak Retina IIIS is a great camera, and it plus a 50mm F1.9 Xenon, 35mm F2.8 Curtagon and 85mm Tele-arton can be bought for $200 Canadian. Again, this camera is from 1958 and should be bought from someone who has actually used it. The VF/RF is easy to clean and the manual is available on Ebay. I need to finish off my "mini-review" of it. This is a reliable camera, and the meters even work on about 3 of 4 cameras. I sold one on Ebay not too long ago in perfect operating condition and EX+ cosmetics with 4 (50 F2.8, 50 F1.9, 35 f2.8, and 135F4) lenses for $200US.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

One other thought, the low-road. Get a good fixed-lens RF like the Canonet QL17 (40mm f1.7 lens) or Yashica Lynx 14 (45mm F1.4 lens) and stick to the SLR for wide-angle and Telephoto. Cost will be under $100CDN. I picked my Canonet Ql17 for $30US, and sold a Lynx 14 for $50US. The Lynx is not a small camera... it fit perfectly in a Yashica fitted case for the J5 SLR.

PS: For "unobtrusive", the Canonet and other small RF's are hard to beat. My Retina vintage IIIS with it's all-chrome lenses will draw attention when out in a public place. One time I had a Bag-Pipe player at a festival stop playing, walk up to me, and ask "Is that a Leica? My Father always wanted a Leica."

 

[wierdcollector]

If you really must have a meter, a FED 5C is a good choice, cheap, reasonably recent so less likely to need CLA, many good lenses available cheap. If you don't need removeable lenses, a Yashica Electo GSN, Ricoh 500 G, Minolta Himatic F or G, Konica C35, Canon Canonette 19, 25 or 28, Olympus Stylus Epic, or even a Petri 7S in working shape, are all affordable, relatively good quality and in the case of the Petri at least, make a mean self defense weapon on an old hippie style strap. Point being, there are many choices of fixed lens RF cameras which you can use by carrying a separate cheap light meter, or a few choices that have interchangeable lenses and built in meters. There is also the option of the older hot shoe mounted meter units if you can find a good working one. I have a Ricoh unit myself that still works like a charm. It all depends on your tastes, needs and budget. Let us know how you make out in your search. Curt in Canada.

 

[Todd.Hanz]

Good thread,
I just aquired a Yashica GSN for 35.00, with acc. lenses. Supposedly they can take the 45mm and make a "wide" 37.7mm and a tele 58mm, the jury is still out as to the quality of the end picture but stay tuned and I will post some samples when I develop the film. The camera itself is very slick, although it is apeture priority and shutter speed is set for you, not manual so it may not be what you are looking for. Don't knock the fixed lens rangefinders most have a fixed lense size of 40-50mm and a FAST f stop of 1.4-2.8 . I read somewhere that 95% of all pictures could have been taken with a normal lens, there may be something to that.
I say go get a Canonet, a Konica S2, GSN, or whatever for about 25.00-75.00 bucks, throw a roll of film in there and go shoot it. They'll impress the hell outta' ya, you cannot go wrong. If you keep it, it will be one more tool in your bag.

 

[taffer]

Hi Andrew and welcome to Rangefinderdom !

Here's another vote for the Canonet. I own and use some Former Soviet Union rangefinders, and even though I like them a lot (mainly the Contax II copies, the Kievs, of which I have three now), they're probably not the best way to be introduced in the RF world for everyone.

On the other hand, they were my intro to that world 🙂, but after owning and using also a couple of Canonets and some other fixed lens rangefinders, I can't do more than praise their virtues.

The Canonet G-III QL17 is probably the most famous fixed lens RF out there nowadays, and a lot can be read about it. Apart from a great lens, it's a well made and really compact camera that you can carry easily everywhere.

It has an automatic exposure (shutter priority) mode as well as a manual one that doesn't need batteries to operate. You'll find lots of them on eBay, but if you can find a recently serviced one (if light seals were not recently replaced then you'll have to do that, after 20+ years they turn into some sticky black goo) for $75 or so with Buy-It-Now options. They're not always there, but if you wait a bit you'll find it.

There are also a lot of other interesting fixed lens RFs, such as Minolta Himatics, Konica Auto S, and the huge Olympus family. I suggest you to take a look at Stephen Gandy's www.cameraquest.com and have a look at Compact 35's RF section.

You'll find there info about Russian rangefinders too, so you can make yourself an idea about them. Also, if you're lucky enough, you can find a nice Canonet and still have some money to get a Fed-2, 3, a Zorki 4, a Kiev or some other ruski and give it a try just to give yourself an idea.

Good luck with the quest !

Oscar

 

[sherp]

Thanks so much for all the input everybody!

By the sounds of it, a 70s fixed-lens rf is the way to go. So I'll keep my eyes open for a bargain, and once I get one, play around with it for a while and decide whether it would suit all my needs for europe. I can see myself prefering a rf over an slr.... hopefully this won't become too expensive later down the line!

A few quick specific questions now (Canonet Q17 GIII):
- Is the top shutter speed of 1/500th a pain in the butt?
- The meter is not ttl. Will it be accurate enough to shoot slide or am I stuck with neg film? This part is pretty important for me!
- What is a fair price for an overhauled (seals restored, shutter cleaned+calibrated, vf cleaned+calibrated) canonet?

Another interesting camera I have noted is the Olympus 35SP. It has center-weighted as well as a spot meter. Would the spot meter be very difficult to use? Would it be at all beneficial for shooting slide film?

Thanks again, Andrew

 

[iMacfan]

The shutter speed isn't too annoying, as long as you use appropriate film (i.e. don't leave 400 film in on a bright day in Summer). One idea is to use a polariser, which doubles up as a 2-stop natural density filter at a pinch. Get a 48mm (Canonet's unusal filter size) to 52mm converter to make it easier to find filters. The light meter should be fine for slides, especially as there is an exposure lock function. Be careful not to be ripped off, as a shop could charge up to $400 USD for a perfect one, which makes replacing the light seals yourself seem not too bad!

David

 

[rover]

48 mm filters are easily found on ebay, this seller has been very good to me and some others here,

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...=maisonfoto&include=0&since=-1&sort=3&rows=50

In general I use 200 ASA or slower film, but I have 1 and 2 stop ND filters that I can use in bright light when I have faster film loaded. The meter is not TTL, but it is in the lens construction, so the camera will automaticly compensate for the filter.

As far as price, follow a bunch on Ebay, real clean ones probably will still command close to $100. If you are looking for a good user, find a good one and send it for a full CLA. The total investment may be up to $200 doing this, but you will have a good friend for a while.

I don't have an Oly SP, but you will hear a lot of good about them too.

 

[SolaresLarrave]

sherp, for a while I was an enthusiastic collector of Japanese 70s RF cameras until I stumbled into Leicas... but that's another story.

Canonets are one choice to use that film you always wanted to, but never knew how to get: Kodachrome 64. With this film, sunny days are more than a blessing, and your fastest shutterspeed necessary will be 1/125 (assuming you use the lens at f5.6).

Now, another good alternative: the Konica Auto S2. It's larger and heavier than the Canonet, but the viewfinder is just like the Leica M3's. Unlike the Canonet, the meter doesn't quit working when you switch the camera to manual, and their lenses are first rate as well. At risk of hurting some good ole members here, I'd aim for one instead of an Oly. If I see something for sale (be it a Canonet or anything I'd like to lay my hands on), I'll pass you a PM through the board. Good luck! 🙂

 

[SolaresLarrave]

Ooops! As for a fair price for a Canonet... it's still under USD $100. Regarding accuracy of metering: I only shot slides with mine. If the metering isn't strictly TTL, it's close, because the cell is located right above the inner lens ring, and if you put a filter on it, it'll cover the cell as well. So, for practical purposes, it is TTL.

Let's hope I covered all your questions. BTW, Kodachrome 64 is slide film (the best there is in color!).