The Decisive Moment and Other Mutterings

[BrianShaw]

A savant may be able to do mathematics in his head such that he astounds us - but he is still doing math. His neural pathways just do it quicker and more efficiently than most of ours, is all.

HA, HA! I just saw this... must have read right over it. This reminds me of my best friend. If I tell him that the worm I stepped on and squished on the sidewalk was "about this long" (imagine seeing my right hand with two fingers extended, separated "about that long")... he'll say something like "Oh, in metric that would be... do you want to know in mm or cm?". Then he'll give me all 3 answers before I can tell him he's a kook.

 

[peterc]

the DM may not be recognizable to anyone but the photographer.

In other words ... it's art -- in this case, a graphic interpretation of a scene/event.

Peter

 

[telenous]

Bill, I enjoyed your post, it is well-thought and incisive. The more I think about it the more I think you are right. I do not want to enter in the correct way of interpreting Bresson, it suffices that what you are saying makes sense to me. Your analogy with rifle shooting is a good one and it made me think of another one (closer to my interests): It's as if the compositional elements of the photo are words chosen aforehand in random order that when combined properly express a meaningful sentence. Notice how it is possible to end up with two different meaningful sentences out of the the same string of randomly ordered words (if we want to be precise we must say that it is even possible to end up with two or more different meanings even if we use the exact same string of words, e.g. "Mary had a little lamb" may mean two different things). Now, photographers may recombine the very same compositional elements in different ways so that, although starting with the same constituents they end up with a different composite structure. That makes sense too, for two photographers in the same field may produce surprisingly different images of the same event.

Does that mean that the event is actually a different one for each photographer? I do not think. The images are different but the event is one.To give another example: Suppose two photographers take a picture of an elephant in a zoo. Their angles are different, the equipment is different, the backgrounds are different and so on. The pictorial output results in two (perhaps strikingly) different photos - but of the same elephant! That is to say, each photographer is responsible for the pictorial represantation of a given event. It wouldn't suprise me then if it were possible for two photographers to take a picture of the same event and end up with two different, perhaps unrelated Decisive Moments photos. Some time ago I watched a documentary where this precise point was made. Kapa and Bresson were taken photos of the same rally and they ended up with completely different photos, each of which (a) documented the same event (b) commented on it in a different way.

 

[wtl]

My recollection is that the term "decisive moment" was coined by the English-language publisher. However, it summed up Cartier-Bresson's philosophy quite accurately.

His original book titled "Images à la sauvette", by simple translation, is "images on a sly" which should really quoted as "snap shots" or "random snaps" or something in that nature, which is almost exactly the opposite of "decisive moment". But, whatever floats your boat.

 

[ajones]

Indecisive moment anyone?

Indecisive moment anyone?

Duane Michals once said something to the effect that there are photographers out there that literally shoot hundreds of rolls of film attempting to come up with an image in all of the confusion. But the difference between the artist and the photographer is a sense of control. Kudos on the analogy with the rifle by bmattock- heck our term “snapshot” comes from being quick on the wing of a bird. Quail on the grill, yummm. As to Garry replied, "When I am reloading, there are no photographs.”, this is ego and not Zen. I wonder if Garry ever roamed the streets shooting with no film in his camera. I would give him props for that! If anyone here wants to get their Zen on, read Zen in the Art of Archery by Eugen Herrigel and every time bow and arrow is mention, replace it in your mind with camera. Oh, and lets not forget in all of our worry of the DM that Cartier-Bresson himself gave up photography in the 70’s and took up drawing announcing photography an inferior art.

 

[wtl]

If anyone here wants to get their Zen on, read Zen in the Art of Archery by Eugen Herrigel and every time bow and arrow is mention, replace it in your mind with camera.

Or better, get to the heart of the original writings by Tao which is the father of Taoism that later branched off to Zen.

Smeone mentioned earlier about "really quick Zen" is making me laugh.

The fact someone else agreed with it is making the whole thing more laughable.

I am spending time posting and responding to these laughable concepts is laughable itself.

Now, we are really talking about Zen here...

 

[bmattock]

In other words ... it's art -- in this case, a graphic interpretation of a scene/event.

Peter

One may argue that 'art' is interpreted by the ultimate viewer of the finished product. The 'DM' is interpreted by the photographer and lives in his or her mind alone. The successful capture of that moment may make the resulting image more successful as 'art' as well, but that is on the viewer, an external event.

Just my take on it...

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[back alley]

where did i put that 'philosophy' section to the forum...?

 

[telenous]

Been looking for it too 🙂

 

[bmattock]

As to Garry replied, "When I am reloading, there are no photographs.”, this is ego and not Zen.

I cannot argue from a position as a master, not even as a devoted acolyte. But it seems to me that the recognition that the DM exists internally and not externally is in the nature of zen. The zen practitioner works for an awakening, a recognition of the natural processes of the self and of the world. By recognizing the DM as being essentially internal in nature, and be accepting that one does not control the composition of a street photograph, one influences the factors that combine to create the scene, one is practicing a form of zen.

This is only my relatively uninformed opinion, based on a no-doubt flawed understanding of zen.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[bmattock]

Smeone mentioned earlier about "really quick Zen" is making me laugh.

Is not 'sudden enlightenment' a goal greatly to be desired by American Zen practitioners? Really quick zen!

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[jan normandale]

I used to shoot. So I get the analogy. But the one for me was basketball.

On the court you will change and go into a ‘zone’, you will know where the ball is going to be where the other players are going to be and yet you flow right thru all of it and you are on the backboard the ball is already in the net 5 seconds before you put it in. I used to have it when I would ski. In either skiing or basketball it was almost an out of body experience.

Sometimes photography can be like this. You are on the street and you can feel the dynamics and flow, the personalities, the moves or stops people are going to make, and it all coalesces into a fluid moment and you are in the middle of it, or on the side of it, or across the street from it. You have already raised the camera and released the shutter. All determined 10-5 seconds earlier than the actuality.

Other times it’s just a stake out like you were discussing Bill. Sitting tight knowing the moment will come and you will take it when it presents itself. There are a lot of different techniques we all use. These are a couple of the ones available to me that I use for ‘street shooting’.

Want to table an old chestnut? Lets revisit the term ‘street photography’ in relation to the ‘DM’ … heh!

 

[siverta]

I've seen quite a few documentarys about (and with) HCB. I've also read a good deal on the subject. From my point of view, Bill Mattocks explanation seems to be almost the same HCB stated in theese documentaries (and his book Images à Ia Sauvette (1952)).

It all cooks down to form, more precisely: What kind of picture the photographer want to make, and what he/she think is "good" form. Perhaps I'm a bit too academic, but I really don't buy this "zen" stuff =)

Sivert.

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

Is not 'sudden enlightenment' a goal greatly to be desired by American Zen practitioners? Really quick zen!

Now! Now! Super-sized. --- Ask not what Zen can do for you... 😛

Thanks, Bill, for the thread.

 

[wtl]

Is not 'sudden enlightenment' a goal greatly to be desired by American Zen practitioners? Really quick zen!

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

Bill, a very limited understanding from this end... I am no master of any sort.

It is a yes and a no. Sudden enlightment is gradual.

Tao says (I quote):

Emptiness is emptiness,

Color is color

Emptiness has no color

Color is not emptiness

Color is emptiness

Emptiness has color...

(terrible translation, I know, but makes no mistake in typing)

 

[FrankS]

Ha, ha! Fast food zen!

 

[bmattock]

Ha, ha! Fast food zen!

Karma Burger with Cheese, Zen Fries and a Biggie-Sized Enlightenment Shake.

Four and a half Bucks. I'd rather study Sinanju.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[BrianShaw]

Want to table an old chestnut? Lets revisit the term ‘street photography’ in relation to the ‘DM’ … heh!

I don't like either term. But, I'm hungry at the moment so maybe my judgement is a bit cloudy.

 

[bmattock]

Want to table an old chestnut? Lets revisit the term ‘street photography’ in relation to the ‘DM’ … heh!

Perhaps best to let sleeping chestnuts lie?

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[BrianShaw]

Perhaps best to let sleeping chestnuts lie?

Hi...I'd like to order a Karma Burger, no cheese, small order of fries... and can I substitute a Coke for the shake? Oh... and for dessert, a Nutella crepe.