The END of Erwin Putts AND Leica ?

[Godfrey]

David,

My gal returned to me a Leica CL (digital) with an AF 23 Cron because as you say a cell phone does what she requires, and know that she is a big time blogger.

Cal

A cell phone may do all that she, a blogger, requires. It certainly doesn't/can't do all that I, a photographer, require.

Why do we photographers mix these notions up all the time? Photographers needs cameras, all kinds of cameras. No cell phone camera/computer combination does what any larger-sensored digital camera does. They can't.

Film capture is completely set aside from these notions. No one *needs* a film camera to take pictures or do photography any more. Those of us who continue to enjoy film do it because we like it, but assigning "better" or "worse" or any of the other more deprecatory comments to one or the other is foolish. There are a couple of things that a film camera can do more easily than a digital camera but these are generally niche things that only a small number of photographers are concerned with, and "more easily" is a qualitative judgement that depends more on the photographer than on the camera.

None of which has much if anything to do with the drama posted by Erwin Puts and his dissipated love of things Leica. To me, when a writer/commenter/analyst starts talking about "the soul of a camera" (or corporation), it simply means that they've lost their objectivity. Cameras and corporations are the constructions of humans but they are not human, or alive, and therefore have nothing of that sort of themselves.

G

 

[bcostin]

Eh. I've heard people say The Real Leica was killed off by the Leitz's partnership with Minolta decades ago. If anyone has unholy Soulless Leicas made after 1972 that they want to dispose of I'd be glad to help exorcise your collection.

 

[Calzone]

A cell phone may do all that she, a blogger, requires. It certainly doesn't/can't do all that I, a photographer, require.

Why do we photographers mix these notions up all the time? Photographers needs cameras, all kinds of cameras. No cell phone camera/computer combination does what any larger-sensored digital camera does. They can't.

Film capture is completely set aside from these notions. No one *needs* a film camera to take pictures or do photography any more. Those of us who continue to enjoy film do it because we like it, but assigning "better" or "worse" or any of the other more deprecatory comments to one or the other is foolish. There are a couple of things that a film camera can do more easily than a digital camera but these are generally niche things that only a small number of photographers are concerned with, and "more easily" is a qualitative judgement that depends more on the photographer than on the camera.

None of which has much if anything to do with the drama posted by Erwin Puts and his dissipated love of things Leica. To me, when a writer/commenter/analyst starts talking about "the soul of a camera" (or corporation), it simply means that they've lost their objectivity. Cameras and corporations are the constructions of humans but they are not human, or alive, and therefore have nothing of that sort of themselves.

G

Godfrey,

I'm a bad cell phone photographer according to my gal. LOL. Perhaps the worse.

So far I have kept Digital-digital, and Analog-analog. I keep them as separate mediums.

For analog film I seem to favor old retro single coated glass that have character/imperfections.

For digital the modern glass is great, but some older glass holds up really well on digital, namely my Noct-Nikkor and "R" glass.

I kinda appreciate what Leica has been doing. I do agree with the above post that the camera market is shrinking. If it were not for Leica I don't think I would have any interest in digital. It all started when Leica came out with the M Monochrom, and remember that one poster here on RFF said was dumb. Who else makes monochrom digital cameras?

I still love this 7 year old primitive camera warts and all: the crappy screen; the slow buffer; the lack of liveview and video... The charm of the MM is that is so primitive and basic is that it almost is like a film camera.

I share your love for the CL BTW. What a great camera. My hope is the new SL2 has the same layout and menus with only three buttons.

Cal

 

[CameraQuest]

to quote Erwin's blog

"the soul of Leica products has been eradicated. A renewed interest in classical products is the result. The SL and Q are currently the hopeful products for the future. The ghosts of Huawei and Panasonic can be seen all over the campus and while the M-system is still being promoted as the true heir of the Leica lineage, it is now sidelined."

I agree with Erwin that Leica is choosing the wrong path by not keeping the M system as its flagship line. Leica has gone down that path before.
In 1975 the M was discontinued, only to be saved by Walter Kluck and the M4-2.

What will it take for Leica corporate to do an about face, if ever?

Falling profits? New ownership?

Time will tell.

Stephen

 

[james.liam]

to quote Erwin's blog

"the soul of Leica products has been eradicated. A renewed interest in classical products is the result. The SL and Q are currently the hopeful products for the future. The ghosts of Huawei and Panasonic can be seen all over the campus and while the M-system is still being promoted as the true heir of the Leica lineage, it is now sidelined."

I agree with Erwin that Leica is choosing the wrong path by not keeping the M system as its flagship line. Leica has gone down that path before.
In 1975 the M was discontinued, only to be saved by Walter Kluck and the M4-2.

What will it take for Leica corporate to do an about face, if ever?

Falling profits? New ownership?

Time will tell.

Stephen

Using cutting-edge tech in the $8,000 M, for starts.
Rear LCDs that aren't already outdated at introduction, EVFs that aren't marginally-useful toys, real buffers.
Maybe even a film scanner using an SL sensor.

These would be good places to start. Partnering with tech thieves and front companies for the Chinese Government like Huawai is not helpful.

 

[icebear]

Using cutting-edge tech in the $8,000 M, for starts. Rear LCDs that aren't already outdated at introduction, EVFs that aren't marginally-useful toys, real buffers.[1]
Maybe even a film scanner using an SL sensor.

These would be good places to start. Partnering with tech thieves and front companies for the Chinese Government like Huawai is not helpful.[2]

1] Are you an M user? Does the "not cutting edge" tech. and screen limit you in your creativity and ability to capture the images you envision?🙄 Then get an auto focus auto everything, super highspeed 20 fps bulk of a camera with a zoom lens.😀


2] With all this talk about Huawei potentially allowing Chinese spying ... I take it for granted that everything containing anything by Microsoft is potentially read by the US counterpart. Pick you poison or grab a paper and pencil and use old fashioned snail mail🙄

Yes.........+1

Nice to see you around Helen !!!


And finally to Mr. Puts ...
I have the Leica compendium as well, looked through it a couple of times, collecting no dust in some box. His lens reviews were an intersting read at times. Technical tests and figures that were useful to describe measurable differences. As lenses get better and better, there is a limit to what you can measure by yourself. No commments on his photography exmples😉.
For his decision ... he's old enough to do what he wants. Sounds a little grumpy to me but hey, I wish him well.
If Leica isn't capitalising on their brand name and optics know how with big turnover items (like cell phone cameras), they might go extinct a few years down the road. Developing "classic" cameras that will only be used be a few gear heads or special edition collector items😛 might not be enough to stay afloat. Rough guess: 90% of people carry a cell phone all the time. Maybe 0.001% carry a camera all the time. Where is more money to earn?

The pink or light blue women accessory and the handcrafted wicker basket sound like an April fools joke to me, if this is indeed for real?😱
Then of course Puts had to call it quits

 

[Calzone]

1]
I have the Leica compendium as well, looked through it a couple of times, collecting no dust in some box.

Klaus,

The Compendium I would say is now a limited and rare book. I believe only 1500 were printed in the first edition; 1200 in the second edition; and only 800 in the third edition.

The third addition has some corrections and additions.

John Lee posted a link for a second edition, and the seller had an asking price of $850.00. I know-crazy. Likely never sold.

Joe now owns a third edition that he secured from Philippe. I think Landrew has a copy, but which edition? How crazy is that I know three people with this rare book when only 3500 were printed.

Am I a camera nerd? LOL.

Cal

 

[icebear]

Klaus,

The Compendium I would say is now a limited and rare book. I believe only 1500 were printed in the first edition; 1200 in the second edition; and only 800 in the third edition.

The third addition has some corrections and additions.

John Lee posted a link for a second edition, and the seller had an asking price of $850.00. I know-crazy. Likely never sold.

Joe now owns a third edition that he secured from Philippe. I think Landrew has a copy, but which edition? How crazy is that I know three people with this rare book when only 3500 were printed.

Am I a camera nerd? LOL.

Cal

You are nerdy in more ways than just cameras but don't worry about it.😀 (printers and bikes come to my mind immediately)

 

[james.liam]

1] Are you an M user? Does the "not cutting edge" tech. and screen limit you in your creativity and ability to capture the images you envision?🙄 Then get an auto focus auto everything, super highspeed 20 fps bulk of a camera with a zoom lens.😀


2] With all this talk about Huawei potentially allowing Chinese spying ... I take it for granted that everything containing anything by Microsoft is potentially read by the US counterpart. Pick you poison or grab a paper and pencil and use old fashioned snail mail🙄

1] Yes I am. Roll your eyes all you like, but start up of the M9M was/is laborious, it has a small buffer, slow to write and a limited number of cards could be used. Don't need 20 fps, but firing off 6 or 7 images in rapid sequence slows the device. It was expensive new and should have had kinks worked out. Instead, they simply loaded a monochrome sensor into an M9P body without any hardware upgrades. Not a lot to ask for. My M10 and the EVF is OK but nothing stellar. Not particularly good given its cost. By nature, one is more forgiving with more modestly priced items.

2] Whatever you think of US government surveillance (personally have a very dim view of it and don't trust them at all), I trust the malignant Chinese Communist government and its minions even less. :bang:

 

[Rob-F]

t

Perhaps because the opposite of Love is Indifference. Hate is a passion on the other side of Love's coin often born of the latter's betrayal, rejection, change, abandonment, etc.

Say, that's good! Accurate, i believe.

 

[Huss]

Serious question. What would the difference be if Putts quit Leica or not?

 

[Rayt]

I was a motorcyclist and always thought Harley Davidsons is more a work of art than transportation (it isn't if you ever rode one!). Harley's market is going down a cliff due to its ageing base and a glut of mint condition used bikes in the market at half the price. Their latest electric motorcycle is plagued with problems. I am glad Leica isn't facing a similar fate.

 

[Guth]

My guess is the Mr. Puts speaks from more insight when it comes to Leica than some are giving him credit for. When I read his blog post I interpreted things a bit differently. It sounds to me like Leica is shifting their approach to be more in line with that of smartphone manufacturers where the focus (no pun intended) is predominately software based. It also sounds to me that if they haven't actually hired talent away from the likes of Huawei and Panasonic they are at least adapting the approach taken by companies such as those as they prepare themselves for what is to come next. All while tossing the M-system on the back burner.

Leica has done an amazing job with their branding as evidenced by what people are willing to pay for their products today. They figured out that becoming a lifestyle brand was going to provide them with their best chances of survival. The red dot itself is the primary thing that people are paying for these days. In that light the focus on software development makes sense. People have already proven that they are willing to compromise as to what is inside of the cameras as long as the Leica name appears on the outside. My guess is that they are going to further put this to the test as the years go by while catering to an ever evolving target market. Perhaps when it comes to the traditional camera manufacturers Leica will be the last one standing. Just not in the way that most would have imagined.

 

[Keith]

I sometimes wonder what would happen if Leica abandoned the M platform totally ... and I suspect that when they think they can, they will!

 

[Huss]

I sometimes wonder what would happen if Leica abandoned the M platform totally ... and I suspect that when they think they can, they will!

But think about how profitable it is for them. They can sell really old tech for a massive premium over the "competition". And making RF lenses with no AF, no auto aperture indexing etc is much simpler than building lenses with AF motors, stabilization etc.
With mirrorless kameras like the SL and CL, they ARE in direct competition with the likes of Sony, Canon, Nikon etc. It's much harder for them to sell a lower featured EVF camera for more (much more?) than their rivals.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Technology doesn't create great photographs. How long did it take Leica to put a meter in an M? I things like auto focus on the M would drive me away. I mean the M is a camera that separates Leica from the herd and everything else that is out there already. You want all that stuff on a camera there is a lot of room to move around. You want something that is like an MM or an M 10 you have Leica. And the M is still their flagship camera.

 

[Calzone]

Technology doesn't create great photographs. How long did it take Leica to put a meter in an M? I things like auto focus on the M would drive me away. I mean the M is a camera that separates Leica from the herd and everything else that is out there already. You want all that stuff on a camera there is a lot of room to move around. You want something that is like an MM or an M 10 you have Leica. And the M is still their flagship camera.

Allen,

Well said.

Leica rangefinders surely have a cult following.

The M monochrom is a very primitive, basic and simple camera, and that is its charm, warts and all.

I think many here don't see the bigger picture of the Leica evolution/revolution. First came the "S"; next came the SL; then came the M-10. I would argue that these three cameras have more in common than they are different if you count the layouts, controls, processor, buffer.

I would even say the M10 is basically a SL made as a rangefinder. I have a friend who is an SL owner and has remorse buying a M10. Pretty much he agrees that pretty much the M10 is like an SL in disguise. I know this because he asked if I was looking to buy a brand new M10.

Also I own an APO 35 Cron-L. What a crazy lens. Who else makes APO wides?

Thirdly how about the new "L" mount? Don't discount the lack of constraints of the "L" mount. I might say that these APO primes are "future proofed" out maybe 3-4 generations for maybe a hundred MP sensor.

Know that I was told that the Leica "Q" lens is said to be future proofed to 80 MP. So far the Q2 is out and it only has 47 MP.

I await the release of the SL2. It is rumored to have the same 47 MP sensor of the Q2; IBIS; and have a body made of magnesium for lighter weight. It will use the same battery that is used on the SL and SL2.

Meanwhile I see that M users will remain "die-hards." Easy to see if you do the research that there are limitations and constraints on the M-mount.
I hope I don't get death threats or flamed too badly, but this APO-L glass bests any M-lens, even APO M-lenses.

As far as "being accused of being a rich dentist factor" I don't have to be told by haters that Leica gear is expensive, I own a lot of it. LOL.

The fact is the M-Monochrom, although 7 years old, remains an outstanding camera. My SL is going on 5 years old, and it too is a keeper, even if I buy a SL2. This is why I bought into Leica. In real life I grew up poor and I'm a CF. To me I laugh all the way to the bank because there is a enduring vision.

Lastly the weathersealing is a big deal to me, but somehow it remains discounted by others. The other makers from what I know don't offer this all weather capability for longevity and durability. The Q2 has weather sealing and is a valuable upgrade.

Cal

 

[robert blu]

Technology doesn't create great photographs. How long did it take Leica to put a meter in an M? I things like auto focus on the M would drive me away. I mean the M is a camera that separates Leica from the herd and everything else that is out there already. You want all that stuff on a camera there is a lot of room to move around. You want something that is like an MM or an M 10 you have Leica. And the M is still their flagship camera.

+1. I couldn't say it in a better way, thamns.

 

[splitimageview]

Oh, the drama!

This isn't the first time for Erwin to make big noise about exiting...same thing he did with his website a few years ago.



At one point the defunct website was resurrected but it is down again, the wayback machine seems to show the last data available at the end of April 2018.

What's the over/under for when he changes his mind (again?) 🙂

 

[Michael Markey]

Technology doesn't create great photographs.

I`m not so sure. It enables great photographs to be taken. Although not relevant to the type of photography on this board , the advancement of sophisticated AF systems has made a big difference in sports photography .