The Ikon Has Landed

[jano]

is there a difference between the grey market and the limited edition ZI (the onese that are to be available at popflash, for instance)?

 

[Huck Finn]

AFAIK the only significant difference is the warranty - manufacturer's warranty vs. store warranty . . . & the price. The LE also has a special engraving which is not on regular production cameras . . . FWIW.

 

[ZeissFan]

Specially, CL/CLE fans will fall in love with the black model, I guess, the whole camera looks like a homage to the mighty CLE 🙂
Oscar

I don't think Carl Zeiss AG had a discontinued 30-year-old camera in mind when they were designing this one. However, maybe you should get a camera + lens for mentioning it. 😀

 

[JohnL]

B&H now has them in stock at $1617 🙁

 

[CameraQuest]

Yes, Huck

you are paranoid. it's amazing how much stuff you are imagining that simply does not exist.

all of the new new ZM lineup with a serial number (camera bodies or lenses) leave the factory with a hand signed inspection certificate by Zeiss Quality Control. If it does not pass, the problem is fixed, or the sample is destroyed in evaluation to get to the cause of the problem. There is no such thing as new ZM products which leave the factory without passing Zeiss QC.

Stephen Gandy

 

[Pymm]

While picking up my new M6 and Elmar I obviously went into my favorite bar for a quick pint or two .... Frequented by artists andf photographers (or folk that call themselves such) the discusion pondered towards the new Zeiss rangefinder. It was very clearly agreed upon (by all the "Profs") that the new Zeiss was just an extension of the Bessa and that the lenses were renamed bessas VC lenses too, just a brand mark up ... And actually the whole thing had very little to do with Carl Zeiss, but just a way in keeping their name up there ... Now I don't know how to value these comments but listening to the srgumentation they seemed pretty valid to me

 

[aizan]

they don't know jack.

 

[ZeissFan]

Pymm, very truthfully, the comments from these folks (nice as they might be) are both not true and also display a lack of knowledge about Carl Zeiss and the camera. This is just the type misinformation that Zeiss will have to counter with this camera and the lenses.

The lenses are Carl Zeiss designs. Carl Zeiss has NEVER taken other lens designs and attached Planar, Sonnar or Biogon or Distagon to the name plate. NEVER. Now, other companies have done that with Carl Zeiss designs, but not Carl Zeiss.

And the body is a Carl Zeiss design that makes use of some Cosina parts. But there are notable and significant differences throughout the camera that set it apart. The Zeiss Ikon is not a rebadged Bessa, and I don't know if that can be said often enough.

I can certainly tell you that the touch and feel of the Zeiss Ikon is markedly different from a Bessa. And the viewfinder vastly surpasses the Bessa's nice design. As nice as the Bessa viewfinder is, it doesn't approach the precision of the Zeiss Ikon.

These fellows are sadly mistaken.

 

[Taipei-metro]

My wariness of the grey market in this case comes from 2 factors: the Zeiss/Cosina partnership & Zeiss quality control.

My expectation is that the high standards of Zeiss QC will lead to a higher number of rejected samples than ususal. In some of these, the identified QC problem will be corrected & they will be turned around & become regular production cameras. However, what happens to those that are rejects?

My fear is that these make their way through back door channels into the grey market. This is where they strange partnership between Zeiss & Cosina comes into play. Zeiss didn't simply subcontract the manufacture of these cameras to Cosina the way Nikon & others have. They also gave them distribution rights in Japan. As a result, Cosina has its own "Zeiss" section on its website (www.cosina.co.jp) So, my question is who controls inventory? Especially in regard to rejected samples. Do these "rejects" fall below Zeiss standards but fall within normal standards for Cosina products? Does Cosina "own" them after they have been rejected by Zeiss? What does it mean to have a Zeiss Ikon that does not carry a Zeiss warranty? Why is Zeiss not willing to stand behind it? Is it just corporate rights & distribution channels? I think it's important that grey market dealers address the QC issues in their advertising & on their web pages to clarify these questions.

I had not originally planned to buy an early production sample but was prepared to wait for user reports & to see the failure rate. (In addition, I've already waited more than a year. 😉 ) However, I have been convinced to buy now because of Zeiss QC & because I think that these first samples have probably gotten even more scrutiny than regular production samples will get once the ice has been broken & production routines have become, well, "routine." Part of what I'm paying for IMHO is the reliability that comes with high QC.

I hope that the grey market cameras are built to the same high standards becasue it is an important source for many buyers & because we have some good grey market dealers from which to choose. The grey market also puts downward price pressure on the official distributors - which is certainly needed in the USA. As an aside, it's stunning that the same camera can be obtained for $250 less in England from a highly respected dealer than in the USA.

As I said in a previous post, call me paranoid. 😛

Huck

It's a kind of LOW to IMPLY Japanese or Cosina supply Zeiss Ikon "rejects" to non-Hasselblad distributor like CameraQ.
Zeiss Ikon is fresh out of the oven, you may pay up to $1,650 at B and H, or $1,400 from Hong Kong, China and still get an out of alignment finder like RD-1s, gray or not gray, who knows.
Zeiss QC, Voigtlander QC, Rollei QC (remember Rollei RF? was $1,400 when introduced, now selling $600 w 40mm Zeiss ) aren't they the same people?...Yeah Germen! LOL.
Cosina in Asia, is not Lexus, more or less like Sanyo in the electonic world.
There are two page ads in many Japanese Photo mags.
ZI is a beautifully designed camera, too bad the Germen can't do it by themselfs, they may priced them $2,400 per body (still a lot cheaper then M7) because they are MADE in GERMANY!!!
Like the Japanese ad sez, Zeiss Ikon Hou-de-soh, a 'competent opponent'. The ads did not mention Leica, and from Leica's POV, ZI is a cheap camera.
OT/ Next page from the ZI ads, from 9-05 Asahi Kamera magazine is the works from one of my admired photographer, Suda Issei, from his ANOTHER PLACE photos, I didn't see his work for a while, he uses a Ricoh Auto Half E, about $40, I would say. Brilliant as always, his works.

 

[CJP6008]

I am told by Robert White who has visited the production facility at Cosina that the Ikon is a very different product to the Bessa. As ZeissFan correctly states, the lenses are new designs and are in no way related to the CV lenses. The camera body is also very different. Just as in any industry, some parts are sourced from the same third party supplier. In ths case, I understand that the shutter blades are made by Copal (spelling?) as there is no sense reinventing the wheel and producing a unique one just for this camera. Of course it could be done but not if you want to hit any sensible price point. I am sure that some one else make the screws too and you might find them on other products as well - so what? Just because they are made by the same company does not make them the same product.

I suspect all we really learn from such folks is the profundity of their ignorance. The empty vessel sounds the loudest.

 

[Huck Finn]

Yes, Huck

you are paranoid. it's amazing how much stuff you are imagining that simply does not exist.

all of the new new ZM lineup with a serial number (camera bodies or lenses) leave the factory with a hand signed inspection certificate by Zeiss Quality Control. If it does not pass, the problem is fixed, or the sample is destroyed in evaluation to get to the cause of the problem. There is no such thing as new ZM products which leave the factory without passing Zeiss QC.

Stephen Gandy

Yes, we agree that I am paranoid. Believe it or not, the essence of what I posted was told to me by a dealer. It's great to have such bad information countered by someone who is knowledgable.

Thank you, Stephen, OTOH for such great information. It's just the kind of insight we've been dying to obtain. Can you tell us more of what you learned from your tour of the Cosina factory?

Regards,
Huck

 

[Solinar]

Folks sometimes speak of Cosina as if they were the Sigma of the RF world. To tell you the truth, the two LTM lenses I have from them are pretty darn good.

For what it's worth, had I to choose between buying a Voigtlander or possibly a Zeiss Ikon from B&H Photo Video and Stephen Gandy, guess which one I would choose. When I order a lens from CameraQuest it usually gets here in 2 days and the shipping cost are reasonable. Plus, he answers emails faster than I can get back to my computer.

 

[leafy]

I suppose the bad mouthing for Cosina started back when they do OEM for all other camera manufactorers in the entry market segment, such as FM10 for Nikon. Though the camera itself is fully functional, it lacks the 'feel' of a high quality camera when compared to FM2/3a and such. Even when Bessa-L was first out (I used to own one, but sold it after 2 weeks), it resembles the FM10, only without the prism and reflex mirror. Such impressions are hard to shake off without paying close attention to what is happening recently, especially when ZI had been vaporware only until a week ago.
Cosina may not be Lexus, but Toyota didn't start ou as Lexus either.

 

[Socke]

Are Apple Powerbooks the same quality as Dell or Gateway because both are made by OEM manufacturers in Taiwan by either Quanta or Asustek?

 

[Stephan]

Folks sometimes speak of Cosina as if they were the Sigma of the RF world. To tell you the truth, the two LTM lenses I have from them are pretty darn good.

For what it's worth, had I to choose between buying a Voigtlander or possibly a Zeiss Ikon from B&H Photo Video and Stephen Gandy, guess which one I would choose. When I order a lens from CameraQuest it usually gets here in 2 days and the shipping cost are reasonable. Plus, he answers emails faster than I can get back to my computer.

But then Sigma lenses are pretty damn good and great value for money, as long as you stick to the pro series 🙂

 

[FPjohn]

cv vs ZI

cv vs ZI

Hello:

A happy user of a 25mm Skopar, I look forward to a comparison with the F2.8 ZI. If it surpasses the Skopar at 5.6 paternity (or descent) will not be an issue.

yours
Frank