airfrogusmc
Veteran
I doubt that especially with the sales #s with their MM and M 240.
asiafish
Established
I just bought an M5, best debacle Leica or anyone else ever manufactured.
Takkun
Ian M.
Still my favorite of theirs.
I still hold that the financial predicament Leica found themselves in wasn't the result of the M5's 'radical' design alienating their customer base, but the fact that it was too little and too late to keep a lot of people from jumping ship to SLRs with AE and long glass, while their own SLR lineup left a lot to be desired. Remember that a number of other makes stopped manufacture around this time, like Miranda and Zeiss/Voigtlander.
When you're a specialty manufacturer with a big number of confusing products and no diversification outside of that (the way other camera companies have other businesses, like Panasonic's consumer electronics and Nikon's industrial imaging), it's hard to stay afloat--look at how Apple turned themselves around in the late 90s after streamlining their offerings. Back then, Leica was juggling the M4, M5, CL, Leicaflex, and Visoflex systems all while trying to compete with growing automation in the competition.
Now that digital is here, and they survived that, I think competition for them is a lot less tough. The sort of people that will buy Leica are going to buy Leica.
We all know that a niche product isn't necessarily viable commercially, but it seems that with the S2 keeping them in the commercial photo business and having their toes dipped in the compact market that they're probably going to keep the M system alive for some time.
If they produced a M43 AF line, I wouldn't be surprised or disappointed.
Darthfeeble
But you can call me Steve
Upset with Fuji??? That's like the runner's up being mad at the winner. Learn something and pay attention to the market should be what they are doing. I agree that the report is hearsay until we see some documentation but I don't think the hearsay is too far off the mark.
Where have you seen the numbers?
airfrogusmc
Veteran
I've shot with Fuji and I prefer Leica by a lot. Why compete with the cameras with all the bells and whistles. I went to Leica because they don't have that stuff. There are a lot liek me out there. If I want auto everything there certainly are a lot of choices for that but a mostly manual B&W only rangefinder. HMMMMM the MM is all I can think of thats out there.
airfrogusmc
Veteran
There are still long waiting lists for the M 240 and it took me over 6 months to get my MM. Sales aren't in the Canon Nikon or Fuji #s but the M9, MM and M 240 sales have brought Leica back into the game.
There were up 23% in 2012
http://www.thephoblographer.com/2012/02/14/fiscal-reports-leica-going-uphill-olympus-going-downhill/
That was before the M-E, MM and M-240.
VertovSvilova
Well-known
I have no thoughts nor any insights on the material itself since I have no connections with Leica nor do I have any qualifications to allow me to legitimately comment on Leica's business plan. The only comments would be based on my personal opinions and personal world view about the camera industry and Leica specifically.
But I will pass on some thoughts and insights about accumulating information and building a knowledge base about a particular subject matter. Learn to filter out things you read in respect to the source material. The internet is not peer reviewed; anyone can 'publish' anything they please. Be wary of the source of any material you read and of the author's background and credentials. Learn about an author's background and their agenda and bias. Learn to filter material and to substantiate what's being stated with other source material.
I realize you're not gathering material (and what's called a "literature review" of a particular subject) in order to publish an academic thesis, but nonetheless the internet is filled with both fallacies and facts, the good and the bad, and the sublime and the ridiculous. And there is no regulatory body, no publishing standards, and no ethical guidelines. Anyone can build a soapbox and deliver themselves and their agenda out into the world. Try to form your own judgement about what you read based on a variety of source material and not just one relatively anonymous blog. Granted this should be done with any material (both spoken and in print) and not only with what's found on the internet. But the internet is really rife with dubious self-proclaimed 'knowledge' (and with my own comments included
)Roger Hicks
Veteran
Indisputable. But my wife reckoned that during her education (NY and CA, 50s and 60s), it wasn't just that critical thought was not taught: it was actively discouraged, and people were supposed to parrot what they were told. Neither of us has seen much to suggest that matters have improved since.I have no thoughts nor any insights on the material itself since I have no connections with Leica nor do I have any qualifications to allow me to legitimately comment on Leica's business plan. The only comments would be based on my personal opinions and personal world view about the camera industry and Leica specifically.
But I will pass on some thoughts and insights about accumulating information and building a knowledge base about a particular subject matter. Learn to filter out things you read in respect to the source material. The internet is not peer reviewed; anyone can 'publish' anything they please. Be wary of the source of any material you read and of the author's background and credentials. Learn about an author's background and their agenda and bias. Learn to filter material and to substantiate what's being stated with other source material.
I realize you're not gathering material (and what's called a "literature review" of a particular subject) in order to publish an academic thesis, but nonetheless the internet is filled with both fallacies and facts, the good and the bad, and the sublime and the ridiculous. And there is no regulatory body, no publishing standards, and no ethical guidelines. Anyone can build a soapbox and deliver themselves and their agenda out into the world. Try to form your own judgement about what you read based on a variety of source material and not just one relatively anonymous blog. Granted this should be done with any material (both spoken and in print) and not only with what's found on the internet. But the internet is really rife with dubious self-proclaimed 'knowledge' (and with my own comments included
Cheers,
R.
Pioneer
Veteran
When I went to University "Critical Thinking" was taught...but unless your "critical thoughts" matched those of the professor it was obvious you were not thinking. The choice was failure or pass. I "critically thought" myself into passing.
SausalitoDog
Well-known
Leica needs to learn from Apple. They have to be willing to kill the sales of their own products with new ones. They have all the advantages to dominate the RF and RF style markets and they are just not willing or able to do what is needed to lead. Having the best quality for 50 years or more is wonderful but the landscape changes about 10x faster than it used to and it's time for a leapfrog from Leica or they will be lost.
Contarama
Well-known
Leica is a glass and mini format company...better keep it simple...
Contarama
Well-known
Oh you should see what they teach in Oklahoma nowadays sir...lol
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Tom,
Have you any basis for this assertion other than a faith in your version of consumerist "progress"?
Cheers,
R.
David Hughes
David Hughes
Hi,
Since a lot of people do what passes for research for what passes for a degree these days on the internet and RFF is a source, I think I ought to point out that Leica published the brochure about the new Leica M5 in 1974. I guess that was when it was launched. (Or - sarcasm - it could be incredible foresight using some of the much later dates I've read in the www.)
They also used the word 'auto' in relation to focusing in 1931 with the launch of the model II from memory.
The showed AF as we know it at Photokina in 1982 or '83 from memory and produced a lot of nice AF P&S's in the 90's.
Plus, of course, the AF Digiux 2 in 2003 and a lot of earlier digital P&S's. Then there was the AF dSLR the Digilux 3 a little later.
Regards, David
Since a lot of people do what passes for research for what passes for a degree these days on the internet and RFF is a source, I think I ought to point out that Leica published the brochure about the new Leica M5 in 1974. I guess that was when it was launched. (Or - sarcasm - it could be incredible foresight using some of the much later dates I've read in the www.)
They also used the word 'auto' in relation to focusing in 1931 with the launch of the model II from memory.
The showed AF as we know it at Photokina in 1982 or '83 from memory and produced a lot of nice AF P&S's in the 90's.
Plus, of course, the AF Digiux 2 in 2003 and a lot of earlier digital P&S's. Then there was the AF dSLR the Digilux 3 a little later.
Regards, David
Rangefinderfreak
Well-known
Leicas are nice cameras... Hasselblads also but damn big and heavy. All the other cameras I find repulsive. The best in both of them is that when bought years ago, they still are worth something, both in money value and usage value. I would not bother with any other make. My newest is Xpan, funnily combines the both features of both...
sig
Well-known
Not sure if Leica needs a lot of change. The leica brand is well established, they only need to maintain that and continue as before. They are a lux brand, different rules apply for them than the other camera makers.
airfrogusmc
Veteran
airfrogusmc
Veteran
I think if they try to compete with bells and whistles on their M, in my opinion, they are doomed. They never did compete with that. Great manual focus glass after the big two went auto focus. No auto focus in the world is faster than being pre focused.
I bought my MM for as much as it doesn't have. I don't need 10 FPS or auto exposure or even color for my personal work and a lot of my professional. I'm hoping the Leica comes out with a all manual M-E or at least with only the automation of their last M-E (no more automatic than that) with the new sensor. If they do I'm completely switching over even for my professional work.
If they were to go down the same path the big two are on I would just stay with Canon.
SausalitoDog
Well-known
Roger-
No...just my observation on the way of the world. Companies can't even fall back on the strategy of just hunkering down and "doing only what they do best" in this age of hedge fund / venture capital takeovers. More than ever, business of all kinds is a grow or die proposition.
Leica is not immune to this.