The Leica SL: What is Leica thinking?

[borge]

The only one's who was thinking was the marketing department.
Yet another failure that the later generation M's financially will have to "cover" for. I can foresee several price increases in the next years due to the SL. Something's gotta cover the R&D cost when the system won't be able to cover it itself.

 

[ForestCap]

It is the lenses that make FF cameras bulky.

I agree with this and this is something some people ignore. It applies for both mirrorless and SLR. For example, it's hard to make small lenses for a camera like Sony A7 due to the big sensor size even though it doesn't have a mirrorbox, and the short flange distance seems to make it even harder. In the end with the lens on, it neutralizes the advantage of being small, which is a main selling point from earlier and non-"FF" mirrorless camera, but doesn't got inherited by, say, a camera like A7. I think Leica realized this and the new Leica SL didn't want to be a small camera + lens since the very beginning.

I usually categorize camera + lens with good enough IQ to three groups: 1.pocketable. 2. non-pocketable but doesn't hinder the owner from jumping around. 3. Big and/or heavy enough to affect owners physical movement negatively. After using M4/3 for more than two years I'm spoiled by my M4/3 kit, it lies between 1 and 2, depends on which lens is on the body.

To me the new Leica SL is not something I would go hiking with, neither in city nor in forest. First of all I don't have the money...

 

[jsrockit]

The only one's who was thinking was the marketing department. Yet another failure that the later generation M's financially will have to "cover" for. I can foresee several price increases in the next years due to the SL. Something's gotta cover the R&D cost when the system won't be able to cover it itself.

And this is based on what? I think this is going to do well for Leica. Neither of us truly knows though...

 

[borge]

And this is based on what? I think this is going to do well for Leica. Neither of us truly knows though...

You'll see in 3-6 years. Not a single professional photographer will switch to the SL system when it lacks:

1. Lenses
2. A good flash system
3. Professional level support (CPS equivalent service)

The system cost also makes it at niche from day one, as it is not possible to compete with existing brands and systems. 24MP is too little for landscape or studio photographers who print big, 24MP is too much for sports shooters. It's... just not there at all. But in 5-6 years I guess we can determine if it is truly a failure or not. As of today it's not even an option for any professional photographer due to the lack of point 1, 2 and 3.

So who does that leave behind as potential customers? Hobbyist "fine art" photographers that can afford it as a hobby, that doesn't require professional level availability of lenses, service and lighting.

 

[jsrockit]

You'll see in 3-6 years. Not a single professional photographer will switch to the SL system when it lacks:

1. Lenses
2. A good flash system
3. Professional level support (CPS equivalent service)

The system cost also makes it at niche from day one, as it is not possible to compete with existing brands and systems. 24MP is too little for landscape or studio photographers who print big, 24MP is too much for sports shooters. It's... just not there at all. But in 5-6 years I guess we can determine if it is truly a failure or not. As of today it's not even an option for any professional photographer due to the lack of point 1, 2 and 3.

So who does that leave behind as potential customers? Hobbyist "fine art" photographers that can afford it as a hobby, that doesn't require professional level availability of lenses, service and lighting.

Leica is ALWAYS a niche. Leica doesn't need Pros or a broad market for this to do well. I see this is a good seller in its boutique stores. The AF zoom lens camera that the rich vacation photographer would want simply because it says Leica. I see these types in the Leica store in NYC (which is situated around other luxury brand stores). They know they want a Leica, but the M is not for them because it is a manual everything camera. I would imagine that not that many Pros use a M either, but that does well. How about the S2? Does that sell in huge quantities?

 

[Bille]

Ok .... I was prepared to be a little reticent until I saw this pic over at FB.

They have to be kidding .... it's the Edsel reborn! 😱

I am not sure who started spreading the midget with a camera photo, here is the camera in perspective:

http://static1.squarespace.com/stat...3e4b006ea8cf33066/1445221220781/?format=1500w

http://static1.squarespace.com/stat...2e4b0768e93f3b4db/1445285109266/?format=1000w

 

[ForestCap]

I am not sure who started spreading the midget with a camera photo, here is the camera in perspective:

http://static1.squarespace.com/stat...3e4b006ea8cf33066/1445221220781/?format=1500w

http://static1.squarespace.com/stat...2e4b0768e93f3b4db/1445285109266/?format=1000w

dpreview

It's either midget or gorilla.

 

[rbelyell]

Leica is ALWAYS a niche. Leica doesn't need Pros or a broad market for this to do well. I see this is a good seller in its boutique stores. The AF zoom lens camera that the rich vacation photographer would want simply because it says Leica. I see these types in the Leica store in NYC (which is situated around other luxury brand stores). They know they want a Leica, but the M is not for them because it is a manual everything camera. I would imagine that not that many Pros use a M either, but that does well. How about the S2? Does that sell in huge quantities?

i agree pros will not buy this, certainly not now, too many negatives and almost no reason to trade in all their gear and the 'institutional' knowledge and comfort level that goes with it. i dont agree leica doesnt care or need them, again, as getting to them is their stated purpose. this is the second example of a 'commentor' supplanting leicas own statement of purpose with their own. (the first being that leicas purpose is to help out old R lens owners). i'll listen to leica, not those with leica fever.

i agree the only people who will buy this in the main are rich vacationers and status seekers. and just like the newbie parents who buy, then abandon big CaNikon gear in favor of their cell phones, this humongous gear that is fully incompatible with 'vacation', will be left at home. like the T and the xvario, it will sell in the beginning but will have no, zip, zero nada 'legs'.

 

[rbelyell]

I am not sure who started spreading the midget with a camera photo, here is the camera in perspective:

http://static1.squarespace.com/stat...3e4b006ea8cf33066/1445221220781/?format=1500w

http://static1.squarespace.com/stat...2e4b0768e93f3b4db/1445285109266/?format=1000w

second time someone has tried to supplant a photo of the camera plus lens that leica released with a picture of the camera with a rf lens. your picture is 100% not relevent to what the kit leica just released looks like in hand. this foolishness is wearing very thin. if you have evidence that person weilding this monstrosity is a mdget or the photo has been doctored, produce it or produce a photo of the complete leica rig that provides an alternate perspective, or stop the ridiculous baseless statements and irrelevent comparisons. its tiresome and makes more comment on ones skill at logic than providing actual information.

 

[jsrockit]

i agree pros will not buy this, certainly not now, too many negatives and almost no reason to trade in all their gear and the 'institutional' knowledge and comfort level that goes with it. i dont agree leica doesnt care or need them, again, as getting to them is their stated purpose. this is the second example of a 'commentor' supplanting leicas own statement of purpose with their own. (the first being that leicas purpose is to help out old R lens owners). i'll listen to leica, not those with leica fever.

i agree the only people who will buy this in the main are rich vacationers and status seekers. and just like the newbie parents who buy, then abandon big CaNikon gear in favor of their cell phones, this humongous gear that is fully incompatible with 'vacation', will be left at home. like the T and the xvario, it will sell in the beginning but will have no, zip, zero nada 'legs'.

I don't have Leica fever at all. I don't even use them anymore. And do you really believe everything marketing says? You certainly have your own opinions so I'm not sure why you think ours are less valid. And while it may appear that Leica is targeting Pros, we all know marketers have to say this type of stuff or the regular folks won't take it serious. I think Leica's boutique store plan has shown where it thinks its business is.

 

[mlu19]

Awesome system. Leica should have no problem rolling out new lenses.

 

[Godfrey]

second time someone has tried to supplant a photo of the camera plus lens that leica released with a picture of the camera with a rf lens. your picture is 100% not relevent to what the kit leica just released looks like in hand. this foolishness is wearing very thin. if you have evidence that person weilding this monstrosity is a mdget or the photo has been doctored, produce it or produce a photo of the complete leica rig that provides an alternate perspective, or stop the ridiculous baseless statements and irrelevent comparisons. its tiresome and makes more comment on ones skill at logic than providing actual information.

I don't get what bug has bit you. Yes the 24-90 lens is large. So use something else—the camera is all set up to be able to use any lens Leica has made, including all the M system lenses and all the R system lenses.

Sheesh.

G

 

[MikeL]

I don't get what bug has bit you. Yes the 24-90 lens is large. So use something else—the camera is all set up to be able to use any lens Leica has made, including all the M system lenses and all the R system lenses.

Sheesh.

G

Godfrey, just ignore the trolls. When someone posts 13 times in a thread on something they don't like, there are issues you can't reason with. Just ignore.

I like the looks of it. I might get one. 🙂

 

[olakiril]

When compared to the M system, SL+24-90 is big, too big almost. But compared to a DSLR it is normal:

https://hmeye.wordpress.com/2015/10/22/leica-sl-the-real-competitor/
http://kristiandowling.com/blog/2015/10/20/the-leica-sl-type-601-professional-mirrorless-camera

The problem is that DSLRs have a handgrip with great ergonomics that can support the weight of such a big lens. Early reports (such as Ming Theins) agree that SL's handgrip is problematic. With an M lens it will be fine but this system (as I understand it at least) is aiming for the new era of mirrorless that will replace DSLRs. Professionals that use zooms all day will never adapt to such bad ergonomics.

"What was leica thinking?" for me was why didn't they use the same handgrip that S has? It looks great, it feels great why change it?

 

[rbelyell]

I don't have Leica fever at all. I don't even use them anymore. And do you really believe everything marketing says? You certainly have your own opinions so I'm not sure why you think ours are less valid. And while it may appear that Leica is targeting Pros, we all know marketers have to say this type of stuff or the regular folks won't take it serious. I think Leica's boutique store plan has shown where it thinks its business is.

no joe, i dont believe what marketing says regarding the quality of their products. but i do believe them when they tell us who they are gearing those products toward, and i believe them when they explain why they are putting out a new system. i see no reason to substitute my, or anyone elses, opinion for leicas on those two matters about which they have been very clear, and especially so when they have the benefit of making logical sense vis a vis the equipmemnet theyre putting out. why do our members know leicas intent better than leicas stated intent?

 

[rbelyell]

I don't get what bug has bit you. Yes the 24-90 lens is large. So use something else—the camera is all set up to be able to use any lens Leica has made, including all the M system lenses and all the R system lenses.

Sheesh.

G

the honesty bug bit me. its just misleading to without factual support criticize a picture of the actual equipment leica put out, and as support for a point of view that runs counter to what we see, cite an example that shows a different lens in use. thats all, just honesty. good gosh godfrey the guy said the kit cam/lens leica put out was shown in the photo by a midget! and he shows instead a photo of a guy shooting a small rf lens. and you wanna take issue with me pointing out how utterly absurd both those things are? cmon now.

 

[jsrockit]

no joe, i dont believe what marketing says regarding the quality of their products. but i do believe them when they tell us who they are gearing those products toward, and i believe them when they explain why they are putting out a new system. i see no reason to substitute my, or anyone elses, opinion for leicas on those two matters about which they have been very clear, and especially so when they have the benefit of making logical sense vis a vis the equipmemnet theyre putting out. why do our members know leicas intent better than leicas stated intent?

I'm not Joe and you win.

 

[f16sunshine]

Ok,.... We have a winner.
Thank you all for the argument. Let's please move on to anything else.

🙂

 

[Duane Pandorf]

Kristian Dowling over in Australia and one of the photographers evaluating the SL had an update on his blog yesterday highlighting a conversation he had with two of Leica's main players involved with the development of the SL. (Note: Kristian is Leica's new Australian SL Product Ambassador).

Meeting with the Leica SL (type 601) Designers

So I got a kick out of the YouTube link at the end of the article:

https://youtu.be/01NHcTM5IA4

 

[Godfrey]

the honesty bug bit me. its just misleading to without factual support criticize a picture of the actual equipment leica put out, and as support for a point of view that runs counter to what we see, cite an example that shows a different lens in use. thats all, just honesty. good gosh godfrey the guy said the kit cam/lens leica put out was shown in the photo by a midget! and he shows instead a photo of a guy shooting a small rf lens. and you wanna take issue with me pointing out how utterly absurd both those things are? cmon now.

Can you not see that the original picture of the woman holding the camera and lens is very foreshortened? It's a cell phone camera photograph made from too close to the subject, which exaggerates the elements close to the taking camera.

Aside from which, this is an interchangeable lens camera. I don't have to use that lens. I'm interested in the size of that which I have to hold and operate the controls from ... the body, in other words. The body is a nice size; I'll likely never own that lens. The other photo with the gent holding the camera shows me how big the body is, the M lens on the camera also tells me how big it is because I have lenses just like that and know exactly how big they are. Putting the camera next to another one I know the size of lets me gauge exactly how big it is. To scale illustrations from Leica let me see precisely how large the zooms are too.

So give it a rest. I'll not respond to any more of your shrill indictments.

G