The most flexible / buildable medium format system?

[Roger Hicks]

Perhaps, you are going about this all wrong and asking the wrong question. I would suggest that you ask yourself what you will be doing with the camera. Once you know this, you can ask for suggestions as to which camera helps achieve your objectives, else you end up with mush. I shoot mostly rangefinders in medium format because I hate dragging around big cameras, but when I need a close in portrait, an Etrsi and tele lens are dirt cheap, but I don't need it much...so the price is just right.

YES! I ditched Hasselblad because both RB67 and 'baby' Linhof came a LOT closer to what I needed.

Cheers,

R.

 

[brian steinberger]

I agree with most. You need to figure out what kind of shooting you're going to do first, then think about if you really want square or not. Square is nice since you can have square and also crop to rectangle (6x4.5) if you like. It's doable the other way around too, but I find it harder to visualize this way.

I'm a medium format rangefinder man. I own two Mamiya 6's and a Bronica RF645. They are perfect for the style of photography I enjoy, which is documentation, industrial and some nature and environmental portraiture. The Mamiya 6's lenses are the sharpest lenses in medium format. Same goes for the 7. But if I were shooting portraits, close ups, or long telephoto stuff there's no way I'd use these cameras. The most flexible MF system no doubt is Hasselblad, but it is also very expensive. A 1000K budget isn't going to get you very far into a Hasselblad system. The lenses are expensive, even used. I recommend the Bronica SQ camera system for those interested in 6x6 on a budget. In some ways it's more ergonomic than the blad and the lenses are great (PS lenses) though not as good as the blad.

There are also many great 6x4.5 systems like the ETRSi and Mamiya 645, as well as the 6x7 camps of the Pentax 6x7 and Mamiya RB and RZ. We can only help you so much, you need to give us a bit more information. And even then, only you can decide what system fits your needs.

 

[Tom A]

Dont forget the Rollei SL 66 system. A bit obscure, hence reasonably priced. Better close up capability than Hasselblad - lenses can be reversed for macro work. Same lenses as Hasselblad (Zeiss). Once you got a kit together (wide/normal/short tele) and 2-3 backs - you should be set. Minor tilt capability too with the bellows focussing.
Even Victor Hasselblad himself admitted that is some ways, the SL 66 was a better design, particularly for close-up and slight correction of perspective, Brett Weston and Ansel Adams can't be all wrong.
Any Hasselblad/Rollei should be checked out carefully. Those in camera shutters are not cheap to fix anymore - and if they haven't been exercised regularly they can be sticky.
Of course - Hasselblad did make the incomparable SWC - which is one reason for getting the system in the first place.

 

[Snacks]

I found the Bronica SQ-Ai (6x6) to be great. Hasselblads have more of a future though, given that Hasselblad is still going. If you ever wanted to spend a lot of money on a digital back, it would be best to go for a Hasselblad or a Mamiya.

 

[dogbunny]

Thank again,

I'm seeing a lot of options I didn't even consider. I guess I should have specified what I'm planning on doing with the camera. I'm typically out and about with my cameras. I go somewhere new and take pictures--been living abroad for the past 10 years. I photograph anything and everything. I'd like the flexibility of being able to shoot anything from landscapes to portraits. I'm not a big tripod person, but I have seen a lot of nice, portable tripods recently, so I'm not against toting one. I guess a reasonable weight is something of an issue because I do find myself on all day hikes from time to time.

I'm most definitely a hobbyist. I do my own developing and I would like to give printing a shot in the coming year. Those giant negatives really appeal to me.

Sorry if my "needs" are all over the board. I suppose that is probably because I'm into photography for the sheer enjoyment of it. I'm not so purpose driven.

Thanks again for all the input. I have read all the comments, and I appreciate them.

Cheers,

DB

 

[keytarjunkie]

Thank again,

I'm seeing a lot of options I didn't even consider. I guess I should have specified what I'm planning on doing with the camera. I'm typically out and about with my cameras. I go somewhere new and take pictures--been living abroad for the past 10 years. I photograph anything and everything. I'd like the flexibility of being able to shoot anything from landscapes to portraits. I'm not a big tripod person, but I have seen a lot of nice, portable tripods recently, so I'm not against toting one. I guess a reasonable weight is something of an issue because I do find myself on all day hikes from time to time.

I'm most definitely a hobbyist. I do my own developing and I would like to give printing a shot in the coming year. Those giant negatives really appeal to me.

Sorry if my "needs" are all over the board. I suppose that is probably because I'm into photography for the sheer enjoyment of it. I'm not so purpose driven.

Thanks again for all the input. I have read all the comments, and I appreciate them.

Cheers,

DB

Hmm. I'm not sure why you're looking for the most flexible/buildable medium format system then (I like the Bronica, Mamiya RB/Z, and Hasselblad answers...but I think Alpa is king for buildable systems). First choose what format you want: 6x4.5, 6x6, 6x7, or 6x9 (6x8 is really only that gigantic tripod-mounted fuji). Then pick your camera. Some options for you, in my opinion:

-Fuji 6x4.5 rangefinders
-Mamiya 6
-Mamiya 7
-Plaubel Makina 67 and 67W
-Fuji/Voigtlander 6x7 folders
-Fuji GSW and GW rangefinders

I think those cameras can handle landscapes and portraits, no problem. They are pretty flexible. The Mamiya 7 might be the most flexible in terms of lens selection.

I would also definitely consider the Hasselblad though. It is extremely flexible. If you're on a budget the Bronica SQ series is almost as good for much less money.

 

[dogbunny]

I guess flexible wasn't the best word for what I am trying to express. Maybe I am trying to say adaptable. I basically don't mind investing in a system, but I don't want to invest money into something that ends up not suiting my needs. As I don't really consider myself a particular "type" of photographer, I'm looking for the least amount of limitations, so I can wander about styles/subject matter and be free to experiment. --not sure if I am expressing myself clearly.

 

[Calzone]

I'm not sure if this helps, but if you look at all the MF gear in my signature, and I had to be reasonable and practical, I pick only two of my cameras that I would hike around with all day.

I would take my Plaubel 69W which provides a 6x9 negative and also offers tilt and shift on a 120/220 camera. The comparable/equivilent view is that of a 21mm. For natural landscape and urban landscape this is a rig that has a lot to offer.

I'd also pick a Rollei 3.5 with a working built in meter for size, weight and handling.

For traveling and moving around a lot more than two cameras is not practical. Possibly try to limit yourself to only a wide and a normal, and consider fixed lens cameras. I'm not a big fan of changing lenses BTW.

Cal

 

[Matus]

You seem to be in a situation I was 3 years back. Since then I had a Rolleiflex T (sold after 2 years - great camera) and now have Mamiya 6 with all 3 lenses.

The main point is - if you really want the full flexibility including fast lenses, macro, long lenses - then a 645 or 6x6 SLR is the best choice. However you should realize, that for many of the applications (like macro or tele lenses) you will need tripod to achieve best results. Of course that MF SLRs are hand holdable in many (should better say 'most') situations, but for you are much better off with a tripod.

Second part is size and weight - obviously a full MF SLR setup with 3 - 4 lenses is going to be HEAVY - easily at 3 or 4 kg. Just a 645 SLR with lens and finder is around 1,5kg or more. Again - perfectly fine just you should realize that.

For a comparison - I had for about 2 weeks Pentax 645N with 45-90 zoom lens. Very nice camera with large viewfinder, but the weight with the lens was a bit more than 2kg and I found it hand holdable just for shorter periods of time (I am not exactly son of Rambo, so you may see it differently). Now I use Mamiya 6 and can handle keeping it in hand for hours (I do not use neck straps, just a wrist strap for security) - the weight with lens is 1,2kg.

Of course - there are no fast or long lenses for Mamiya 6 nor it is suitable for macros and graduated density filters are probably (no personal experience) hard to use.

To have all grounds covered it would probably be optimal to get a Mamiya 6 or 7 or Bronica RF645 for the times when you want to go light and do not need the additional functionality and on top of that an SLR for the rest.

Even if you do not have a clear focus - look at what kind of photography you do most, or where you want to concentrate in the near future and than make a choice. Or just get that Hasselblad with 1 - 2 lenses and maybe you you will not look back or you will dump it in 6 month and get a rangefinder. Most of us did something similar already - one way or the another

 

[EdSawyer]

avoid hassy

avoid hassy

hassleblad: overpriced, under-featured, and a maintenance nightmare. Expensive lenses. Avoid.

best image quality, bar none, if you can live with a rangefinder camera: Mamiya 7

Best SLR system: Mamiya RZ67 (great lenses, CHEAP prices for used gear, tons of it around, quite reliable, lots of options and features for everything from long tele to macro to tilt/shift, etc.)

-Ed

 

[dogbunny]

You seem to be in a situation I was 3 years back. Since then I had a Rolleiflex T (sold after 2 years - great camera) and now have Mamiya 6 with all 3 lenses.

The main point is - if you really want the full flexibility including fast lenses, macro, long lenses - then a 645 or 6x6 SLR is the best choice. However you should realize, that for many of the applications (like macro or tele lenses) you will need tripod to achieve best results. Of course that MF SLRs are hand holdable in many (should better say 'most') situations, but for you are much better off with a tripod.

Second part is size and weight - obviously a full MF SLR setup with 3 - 4 lenses is going to be HEAVY - easily at 3 or 4 kg. Just a 645 SLR with lens and finder is around 1,5kg or more. Again - perfectly fine just you should realize that.

For a comparison - I had for about 2 weeks Pentax 645N with 45-90 zoom lens. Very nice camera with large viewfinder, but the weight with the lens was a bit more than 2kg and I found it hand holdable just for shorter periods of time (I am not exactly son of Rambo, so you may see it differently). Now I use Mamiya 6 and can handle keeping it in hand for hours (I do not use neck straps, just a wrist strap for security) - the weight with lens is 1,2kg.

Of course - there are no fast or long lenses for Mamiya 6 nor it is suitable for macros and graduated density filters are probably (no personal experience) hard to use.

To have all grounds covered it would probably be optimal to get a Mamiya 6 or 7 or Bronica RF645 for the times when you want to go light and do not need the additional functionality and on top of that an SLR for the rest.

Even if you do not have a clear focus - look at what kind of photography you do most, or where you want to concentrate in the near future and than make a choice. Or just get that Hasselblad with 1 - 2 lenses and maybe you you will not look back or you will dump it in 6 month and get a rangefinder. Most of us did something similar already - one way or the another

Thanks Matus,

Your comments make a lot of sense to me. Now time to make a decision.

 

[rbelyell]

i myself have done a lot of research in this same arena. it seems you prefer 6x6, which is a flexible format, and one favored by ansel adams. if you want portability and buildability at reasonable cost, imho the only choice is the mamiya 6. its retractable lens system males it the most portable easy to carry unit. the lenses are universally acclaimed as among the very best ever made. and you can pick up a basic kit for $1200 usd--cam and 75mm lens, which is the 35mm equivalent of about 45mm, which is a very good fl for the type of use you describe. plus you dont have to fool around with metering--set the aperture you want and get to shooting!

someone suggested mamiya universal as the most flexible reasonably priced system, and i would probably agree, as i have a full such system. problem is it really is not portable, though that is how i have used it. it is the lack of real portability that has caused me to decide to sell the system and, once sold, hopefully put the proceeds to getting a mamiya 6!

 

[rxmd]

Thanks Matus,

Your comments make a lot of sense to me. Now time to make a decision.

I think the "one-size-fits-all" medium format system is an illusion. There won't be one system that does all you want (there almost never is). If you try and go that route by choosing the most buildable and adaptable system, you'll end up with a system that does nothing you want properly.

In the end you might end up with some interchangeable-lens, slow-photography system like a Rollei SL66 or a RB67 or a Technika for portrait and landscape work, and something more hands-on like a Rolleicord or a Mamiya 6 or a folder for street and carry-around photography.

The biggest problem I think is finding something that suits you, as opposed something suggested to you by people because it suits them. Expect to dabble in different systems for a while until you've found the thing for you. This may actually be quite difficult for you, seeing that you are far away from places where you can take a look at the medium format gear used by other photographers. I would dread a situation where I have to buy things like medium format photo gear with no chance of trying it out beforehand for at least a week or two with a loaner.

If you want something cheap and you really are in Kokchetau and you get to Almaty or even Astana at least every now and then, you could just hang around on local Kazakh user forums like Tsentr Tyazhesti (which has a fairly good photo section with classifieds). See if you find a photographer who sells you, for example, a working Iskra, or a Kiev 60 with, say, a 150/f2.8 Kaleinar and a good wideangle. Your chances in getting a good one are a lot higher than in the West, because people will have been using the camera themselves and you can talk to them. (I just bought an Iskra and a couple of Zenits from the Kyrgyz equivalent, Diesel Forum). Don't get involved in the Soviet systems too far, but for portraiture and landscapes, for example, it might be an easier start than a Technika 70, at least if you're in Kazakhstan. At least you can actually get the gear and try it yourself and find a repairman if you need one, which is worth more than having a supposedly-reputable system that you have to buy when on a short trip to the West and that will fail on you as soon as you're back, BTDT.)

 

[RObert Budding]

I like my Mamiya 7II. It's small and light enough to carry about all day with several lenses. You can't focus in rally tight, but it fantastic for environmental portraits.

 

[oftheherd]

...

someone suggested mamiya universal as the most flexible reasonably priced system, and i would probably agree, as i have a full such system. problem is it really is not portable, though that is how i have used it. it is the lack of real portability that has caused me to decide to sell the system and, once sold, hopefully put the proceeds to getting a mamiya 6!

I agree, since I have one. I can only tell you what I like about it over my folders and Rolleiflex. It is a system camera. If you get the Universal, you can get a polaroid back. If you get the Super Press 23, you can get a bellows back. You can get 50mm lens, 65mm lens, 150mm lens, and 250mm lenses. I think the 75 works on both but I am not sure. The 100mm normal comes in f/3.5 and f/2.8. I have the former. The 250mm comes in f/5 and f/8. I have the former, the later being more rare and not RF coupled.

As mentioned, there are viewing backs, some of which take cut film holders, and some are 45 degree and some magnifying. You can get extention tubes for closeup with a view back. Cut film holders till show up on ebay from time to time, but cut film choices are limited, even if you cut down 4x5. But if you want Zone System, they are a must, or a lot of backs (does anybody still do Zone System). There are roll film backs that are interchangable, with darkslides, and crank film advance. On camera, with a handle (essential), the backs make the system surprisingly 35mm like in handling.

A full system is heavy. But so are some of the other camera systems, even if that wasn't mentioned. But the 6x7 and 6x9 negatives are awesome. No other way to describe them. And if you put one roll of slide film through a 6x7 or 6x9 back, you will bragg for years.

The Rolleiflex does not interchange lenses. Neither do my folders. The Rolleiflex is pretty heavy for its size. I don't recall my old Yashica MAT 124 G being that heavy. The folders are not heavy. All are pretty good in the negatives they deliver. I have Welta, Zeiss, and Fuji. I like their quality along with their size and weight.

I personally don't like 6x6, and 645 even less. I think 645 just isn't that much enough bigger a negative for the money spent. 6x6 unless you don't like any prints but square, usually end up giving you about a 645 usable negative after cropping. 6x7 is nearer the best size for 8x10 prints with little loss of negative or print material. That said, 6x9 does give you more real estate, but when you print, you may be forced to go to a larger print size and trim more away. But it is a nice size.

YMMV

 

[Calzone]

The Rolleiflex does not interchange lenses. Neither do my folders. The Rolleiflex is pretty heavy for its size.

With the Rollei's it depends: if you mean a Rollei 2.8, Rollie Wide, or Tele Rolleiflex I would agree, but a Rollei 3.5 is kinda lite. Pretty big differance IMHO.

Cal

 

[oftheherd]

With the Rollei's it depends: if you mean a Rollei 2.8, Rollie Wide, or Tele Rolleiflex I would agree, but a Rollei 3.5 is kinda lite. Pretty big differance IMHO.

Cal

Such things are somewhat subjective. When I had my 124 MAT G I was a lot younger. Same for my Press 23, which I got about the same time. Then weight wasn't a consideration. It isn't as heave as my Press 23, but still heavier than what I like to carry.

 

[dogbunny]

I think the "one-size-fits-all" medium format system is an illusion. There won't be one system that does all you want (there almost never is). If you try and go that route by choosing the most buildable and adaptable system, you'll end up with a system that does nothing you want properly.

In the end you might end up with some interchangeable-lens, slow-photography system like a Rollei SL66 or a RB67 or a Technika for portrait and landscape work, and something more hands-on like a Rolleicord or a Mamiya 6 or a folder for street and carry-around photography.

The biggest problem I think is finding something that suits you, as opposed something suggested to you by people because it suits them. Expect to dabble in different systems for a while until you've found the thing for you. This may actually be quite difficult for you, seeing that you are far away from places where you can take a look at the medium format gear used by other photographers. I would dread a situation where I have to buy things like medium format photo gear with no chance of trying it out beforehand for at least a week or two with a loaner.

If you want something cheap and you really are in Kokchetau and you get to Almaty or even Astana at least every now and then, you could just hang around on local Kazakh user forums like Tsentr Tyazhesti (which has a fairly good photo section with classifieds). See if you find a photographer who sells you, for example, a working Iskra, or a Kiev 60 with, say, a 150/f2.8 Kaleinar and a good wideangle. Your chances in getting a good one are a lot higher than in the West, because people will have been using the camera themselves and you can talk to them. (I just bought an Iskra and a couple of Zenits from the Kyrgyz equivalent, Diesel Forum). Don't get involved in the Soviet systems too far, but for portraiture and landscapes, for example, it might be an easier start than a Technika 70, at least if you're in Kazakhstan. At least you can actually get the gear and try it yourself and find a repairman if you need one, which is worth more than having a supposedly-reputable system that you have to buy when on a short trip to the West and that will fail on you as soon as you're back, BTDT.)

Thanks so much for the links! I really am in Koksheau. I've only been here for two months. I have plenty of non-medium format gear. I've only been to Astana a few times and I've not made it down to Almaty yet. My biggest problem is I end up searching websites through google translate, so my information is limited to be sure. I go back to the States often enough, so I can get new gear if I really want it.

I would love to get into the local scene, but in the North I haven't even seen or met anyone with a film camera. It is great of you to point out what's going on locally. I really appreciate it.

db

 

[Nokton48]

Definately Hasselblad, that's my choice. And I am speaking as someone who has the -complete- system, including all the lenses from 30mm to 500mm, and the vast majority of the original accessories. Nothing else even comes close in terms of it's unique capabilities.

I've never used Rollei SL66, but I've heard they are expensive and difficult to repair. Not so with Hasselblad. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with an early Hasselblad, as long as it has been properly serviced. I use Hasselblad USA and David Odess for my routine repairs.

 

[ChrisPlatt]

Sandpaper not included

Sandpaper not included

Definitely Holga. No other camera brand has so many colors
to match your many moods and coordinate with your outfits.

Chris