p.giannakis
Pan Giannakis
majid
Fazal Majid
It does not at all, specially since a good part of ISIS/ISIL/Daech seed funding comes from sympathizers in Saudi Arabia. I was just pointing out the evil they do, and how pointless it is to expect any humanity or shame from the Al-Saud family. I'm with Ken Livingstone on that one.
There is also the famous photo "General Nguyen Ngoc Loan executing a Viet Cong prisoner in Saigon" by Eddie Adams.
http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/09/18/eddie-adams-ten-years-on-and-war-will-never-be-the-same/
To paraphrase Metternich, it is a geographic entity, not a political one. That said, while Europe bears responsibility for the mess in Libya (specially France and the UK), it bears none for the situation in Syria, where the civil war started due to the bloody repression of the Arab Spring there by Asad's regime, and the flames were fanned by Saudi Arabia, Iran, Russia and to a lesser extent Turkey. Even US involvement is minimal for a change.
Because the Gulf States won't let them in.
Yep, Funny how the country with the most refugees is the non-Arab one. Even Israel is planning for an influx of Druze refugees from Syria, even though it is formally still at war with Syria.
Kenyans living in the Rift Valley, perhaps.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Still, it would have been nice to discuss the impact, merits and results of the image here, instead of world politics. It's out of whack, I'm reading the political analysis on a photography forum and the photographic discourse on Facebook
Plus one Johan!
As the OP of this thread all I can say is business as usual at RFF. The thread was totally derailed by a pissing contest that really amounted to nothing and one of the protagonists has now deleted all his posts leaving us with the usual mish mash of confusion in a thread that actually had some meaning for me.
Well done guys!
astro8
Well-known
I have never understood why someone would delete their posts or block another member.
dave lackey
Veteran
Plus one Johan!
As the OP of this thread all I can say is business as usual at RFF. The thread was totally derailed by a pissing contest that really amounted to nothing and one of the protagonists has now deleted all his posts leaving us with the usual mish mash of confusion in a thread that actually had some meaning for me.
Well done guys!
Back on my original point, I think the fact that no follow-up discussion in this thread on the de-sensitization of humans in regard to suffering points to just that. Politics seems to be much more interesting to discuss than the suffering of fellow humans, even children.
It is sad that a group of photographers who have the power of photography at their disposal, cannot discuss crimes against humanity let alone actually do something about it. The power of an image, like the power of the pen (see the RFF fountain pen thread) is readily available to each of us but it depends on the hearts and minds of those to whom it was bestowed.
fireblade
Vincenzo.
This one got my attention, plus many other thoughts and emotions not worth writing.
dave lackey
Veteran
Vincenzo, yes... and the movie "The Bang Bang Club" gives a great backstory behind that image without being a political pissing match.
DominikDUK
Well-known
This image did unfortunately change nothing, all it created was some public outrage that is getting ignored by the people in power.
But since this is a photography forum back to the image. It is rather weak image imo the narritive outside the photograph gave it its power. Without the knowledge that Soldier carried a 3 year old refugee it would have no power at all. In this case the written/ spoken word has the power and the image is mere illustration.
The image of the Vulture and the child is a much better image imo it tells a story and doesn't need the text.
Adams Picture illustrates the violence of the war in a very graphic way this is something that is lacking in the photo of the drowned refugee child. The vietnamese Girl is again a much more powerful image you have the soldier that signify war you have the emotion from the girl and the boy and another very importan thing the (innocent) girl is naked which means vunerable and you ask yourself why is she naked and how can I help/protect her.
The refugee photography is I am sorry to say a puffed up propanda piece (propaganda can be a good thing) that wouldn't stand on it's own.
Also to the op the image is used in a political way so showing it is already a political statement and it's only logical that a political discussion will follow. I also understand some posters from say Hungary being less that happy about the whole thing because they constantly hear how Hungary treast people like the Nazis did and those comments mostly come from countries that took very little to no refugees and who talk about great gestures when they take 3700 or 5000 refugees compared to the 45 000 in Hungary. Also those pointing their fingers at countries like Hungary seem to forget the socio economic situation of those countries (Greece, Hungary, Macedonia,Serbia, Turkey etc....)
But since this is a photography forum back to the image. It is rather weak image imo the narritive outside the photograph gave it its power. Without the knowledge that Soldier carried a 3 year old refugee it would have no power at all. In this case the written/ spoken word has the power and the image is mere illustration.
The image of the Vulture and the child is a much better image imo it tells a story and doesn't need the text.
Adams Picture illustrates the violence of the war in a very graphic way this is something that is lacking in the photo of the drowned refugee child. The vietnamese Girl is again a much more powerful image you have the soldier that signify war you have the emotion from the girl and the boy and another very importan thing the (innocent) girl is naked which means vunerable and you ask yourself why is she naked and how can I help/protect her.
The refugee photography is I am sorry to say a puffed up propanda piece (propaganda can be a good thing) that wouldn't stand on it's own.
Also to the op the image is used in a political way so showing it is already a political statement and it's only logical that a political discussion will follow. I also understand some posters from say Hungary being less that happy about the whole thing because they constantly hear how Hungary treast people like the Nazis did and those comments mostly come from countries that took very little to no refugees and who talk about great gestures when they take 3700 or 5000 refugees compared to the 45 000 in Hungary. Also those pointing their fingers at countries like Hungary seem to forget the socio economic situation of those countries (Greece, Hungary, Macedonia,Serbia, Turkey etc....)
DominikDUK
Well-known
Forgot to say thank you for starting the thread.
dave lackey
Veteran
The interesting thing about pointing a finger, is everytime one does, there are three fingers on the same pointing back at you!
fireblade
Vincenzo.
Absolutely, and a great movie. Cheers.
nukecoke
⚛Yashica
Actually there are ISIS members in many countries (that are not involved), including the countries I lives(lived) in, like China and Sweden.
Here is an interview of a Swedish man who is a member of ISIS.
https://news.vice.com/article/smorg...nds-fresh-recruits-in-swedens-angry-young-men
Several months ago there were some northwestern Chinese who dreamed of having lots of wives and gold smuggled themselves to join ISIS. Later they were mistreated in the training camp and were looked down upon by ISIS simply because they are ethnically Uighur. Having found that they couldn't get lots of wives and gold, they fled from ISIS to Turkey, surrendered themselves to authority, and Turks sent them back to China. I almost find this story funny.
Aristophanes
Well-known
Because the Gulf States won't let them in.
And who in their right mind would venture from one dictatorship to another?
People flee tyranny.
Aristophanes
Well-known
What "we" are doing about it is a weird, half-hearted bombing campaign costs about US$70 million per day.
Timmyjoe
Veteran
I think the image Keith posted is very powerful, but I wish the major news publishers had used this image of the same policeman and little boy:
Warning, Very Graphic Image
I think the impact of this second image is closer to the work of Nick Ut and others during Vietnam. I find the image Keith posted to be "watered down" and "sanitized" as to not offend the delicate sensibilities of the nobility.
Whether any of it will change the situation, hard to say. Whether it was in response to the Vatican seeing the image or not, in the last day the Pope has come out and encouraged every Catholic Parish in Europe to adopt one Syrian Refuge Family. That would certainly help.
Warning, Very Graphic Image
I think the impact of this second image is closer to the work of Nick Ut and others during Vietnam. I find the image Keith posted to be "watered down" and "sanitized" as to not offend the delicate sensibilities of the nobility.
Whether any of it will change the situation, hard to say. Whether it was in response to the Vatican seeing the image or not, in the last day the Pope has come out and encouraged every Catholic Parish in Europe to adopt one Syrian Refuge Family. That would certainly help.
nongfuspring
Well-known
Yes, my point is that their goal is to go to Syria, not to leave it (as your Vice story points out). All the ISIS members that live internationally either want to go to Syria or try and help the cause by fundraising or recruitment. Most governments actually do their best to prevent recruits from leaving their country.
You'd like to talk about the merits and results of this photograph of a drowned refugee without talking about world politics? It's precisely the power of images that allow them to produce discourse and reflection - this is the true value of photography. The axe grinding, upset people, ideological barbs, fear, and suspicion that the posting of this image on RFF has brought out of the forum I think is testament to the potency of this image and its ability to touch so many nerves.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Nah... The true value of photography is cats and coffee cups and whether the Version 3 Summicron is better than Version 4.
But to return to the actual question, no, I don't think either picture (the boy lying face down in the water or his being lifted up by the policeman) has the same impact as Nick Ut's picture of Kim Phuc, and principally for photographic reasons. The Nick Ut picture is incredibly dramatic and full of action. The pictures of Aylan are elegiac and tranquil: in a horrible way, it's true, but still elegiac and tranquil. Also, you could fake either of them (we know they weren't faked, but that's beside the point). You couldn't easily fake the Nick Ut picture.
The pictures of Aylan will (D.V.) have a good deal of impact, waking people up; but I doubt they will have the lasting power of the picture of Kim, and I am less than convinced that they have the same shock value.
This is not to diminish either the photographer or the tragedy. Rather, it is to illustrate the inadequacy of a purely photographic analysis.
R.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I think there's a subtlety that's being overlooked in this image whereas there is little that is subtle about Nick Ut's image, which is not to criticise it. The man's head turned away and his expression says it all for me .... if he is a parent this is probably one the hardest things he's ever had to do. His emotion is palpable!
emraphoto
Veteran
I was discussing the photographs that had run in the papers this evening past with another pj friend who had fairly extensive experience in the region. We were trying to figure out why this particular image made the front pages versus the avalanche of material that has come out of Syria in the past few years. It was of particular interest to me as I had been present in the immediate aftermath of a terrible massacre of children inside Syria. The pictures I then sent out, of a far more graphic nature than the picture being discussed, were met with a level of hostility I was unprepared for. In short, no North American outlets would touch them. The targeting of children had become commonplace at this point and I was distraught to say the least that nobody seemed to give a damn. What we came up with (pj friend and I) was this particular set of images was 'clean' to the point where the boy could easily become every parent's child. Face obscured, neutral attire and so on. This creates a situation where the boy is somehow detached from the horrific imagery we have seen so far and allows the viewer to think, for just a moment even, that it could be their young boy, cousin, brother etc. creating a far more visceral reaction. Sadly it has become easy to ignore the plight of the 'others' but should we make the emotional connection to our own... well you get the point.
The sheer power of this image is that without the corresponding copy,it could easily be thought of as your/our child.
And then we drank a bunch of whiskey.
The sheer power of this image is that without the corresponding copy,it could easily be thought of as your/our child.
And then we drank a bunch of whiskey.
nongfuspring
Well-known
I think it's the banality of the photograph which is so unsettling, it has all the elements of another familiar facebook beach holiday photograph, only that the child is dead.
That said, I think it's power is due to it's timing and political context. So much of the argument against accepting refugees is that they are a threat and they aren't like "us", this photograph goes against that. But Roger is right in that it doesn't really have the makings of an iconic photograph like the Nick Ut image, but then again I'm not sure if the media really can support iconic images anymore.