The purple cast

[jaapv]

That was a BLACK elephant?

 

[MP Guy]

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

I think we can agree that this is the Prince (or the Artist Formerly Known as the Artist Formerly Known as Prince) edition Leica.

If I ever get a black M8 (anybody at Solms listening??), I'm calling it SMF 😉

 

[galavanter]

Prince ain' nothin'.😉 Dig this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWsMxLP6rqc

I think we can agree that this is the Prince (or the Artist Formerly Known as the Artist Formerly Known as Prince) edition Leica.

If I ever get a black M8 (anybody at Solms listening??), I'm calling it SMF 😉

 

[tkluck]

Only "some synthetic textiles" are rendered as purple. If everything black were affected the same way, it would be a completely different issue with a much easier solution.

http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/8937-official-leica-statements.html

A $5000 black polyester detector?
Is her little black designer dress REALY silk? Only an M8 owner knows for sure!

 

[MarkEDavison]

It would be a mistake to think that infrared contamination only effects the Leica M8, and that it only appears in black synthetic fabrics.

See

http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/MarkEDavison/M8infrared/

for shots showing the nature and amount of infrared contamination in 4 different cameras: Nikon D200, Leica M8, Epson R-D1 and Nikon D2h.

The scene was lit with ordinary incandescent, and the cameras were set on fixed white balance: the R-D1 on incandescent and the rest on 2800 K.

There are three shots for each camera: with no filter, with a tiffen hot mirror IR blocking filter, and with a Hoya R72 IR transmit filter. The exposure for all three shots is the same, so the shot through the Hoya R72 gives you an idea of the relative IR contamination of the 4 cameras. You can also easily see how objects which reflect a lot of IR become darker when shot through the IR blocking filter, just as you would expect.

The colors in the Nikon D200 shots are a very very close match to my impression of the true colors in the scene.

There is a mix of synthetic and natural materials in the scene. Note in particular the maroon pile blanket, the black pile jacket at the bottom, the green blanket near the top, the black anodized aluminum Leica lens barrel, and the black neoprene game case. Note carefully how the IR pollution shifts the green pile blanket towards grey, shifts the color of the maroon blanket, and turns the black pile jacket, the anodized aluminum lens barrel and the neoprene case all purple.

For the Leica M8 I have included an extra shot applying the software profile method suggested on leica-user-camer.com. Note that it improves the appearance of the black objects, but not the others with high IR reflectance.

It is true that the Leica M8 has more IR pollution than the R-d1 and the D2h, but it is a question of degree. For all three of these cameras I would suggest the use of an IR blocking filter to give the truest colors, especially when shooting under incandescent light. The Tiffen filter used here is not strong enough to restore the original colors completely. I will be experimenting with a different filter soon and will report on the results.

Mark Davison

 

[ampguy]

great info. Mark

great info. Mark

I agree with you that it's a matter of degree, but there are other variables, even by setting the 3 white balances on 2800 K, they each have their own version of hot filter and white balance interaction which would have altered the colors yet again differently.

I think the reason why the dark synthetics are mentioned first is because before any of these camera's were even made, it was well known that dark synthetics reflected IR light differently than cottons.

I have a book on IR photography where the author primarily uses IR for wedding photography and mentions that he has to post process the colors when the groom and bridegrooms line up, since the ones wearing synthetic tuxes or tuxes with synthetic trim come out differently from those wearing all natural fabric tuxes.

My critera for what would be acceptable is if there is some way you can tweak those non-M8's WB or other settings to render black synthetics black without a filter in front of the lens, if you can great, if you can't, then it's no better than the M8 issue.

My *ist doesn't do auto WB well, and even manual WB settings are often off, but there is always a manual or alternate setting that will get the colors right. So the *ist works for me, but it is always a caveot I warn others about. Incidentally, the *ist doesn't completely block IR relative to some other DSLRs.

It would be a mistake to think that infrared contamination only effects the Leica M8, and that it only appears in black synthetic fabrics.

See

http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/MarkEDavison/M8infrared/

for shots showing the nature and amount of infrared contamination in 4 different cameras: Nikon D200, Leica M8, Epson R-D1 and Nikon D2h.

The scene was lit with ordinary incandescent, and the cameras were set on fixed white balance: the R-D1 on incandescent and the rest on 2800 K.

There are three shots for each camera: with no filter, with a tiffen hot mirror IR blocking filter, and with a Hoya R72 IR transmit filter. The exposure for all three shots is the same, so the shot through the Hoya R72 gives you an idea of the relative IR contamination of the 4 cameras. You can also easily see how objects which reflect a lot of IR become darker when shot through the IR blocking filter, just as you would expect.

The colors in the Nikon D200 shots are a very very close match to my impression of the true colors in the scene.

There is a mix of synthetic and natural materials in the scene. Note in particular the maroon pile blanket, the black pile jacket at the bottom, the green blanket near the top, the black anodized aluminum Leica lens barrel, and the black neoprene game case. Note carefully how the IR pollution shifts the green pile blanket towards grey, shifts the color of the maroon blanket, and turns the black pile jacket, the anodized aluminum lens barrel and the neoprene case all purple.

For the Leica M8 I have included an extra shot applying the software profile method suggested on leica-user-camer.com. Note that it improves the appearance of the black objects, but not the others with high IR reflectance.

It is true that the Leica M8 has more IR pollution than the R-d1 and the D2h, but it is a question of degree. For all three of these cameras I would suggest the use of an IR blocking filter to give the truest colors, especially when shooting under incandescent light. The Tiffen filter used here is not strong enough to restore the original colors completely. I will be experimenting with a different filter soon and will report on the results.

Mark Davison

 

[MP Guy]

Mark,

I have a few of the Heliopan UV/Digital/Analog filters which are apparntly IR cut filters. I will receive them today and experiment with them. Have you had a chance to try out the Heliopan?

 

[madmaxmedia]

In addition, the guy's head has purple highlights. Either that or it's the purple strap for the purple octopus, which oddly is not purple (except for the weird purple fringes.) And you can still see purple in the reflection on the counter. Either way, this corrected version clearly looks manipulated.

I think test shots of swatches of cloth can probably be easily fixed with this sort of manipulation. But then throw in real-world photos like this, with reflections, shadows, etc. and a variety of colors the photographyer won't remember later at his computer, and well...the IR filter is starting to look good compared to this.

One can always argue that most shots won't have people with purple hats, etc...But who wants to have to deal with this on a piece of equipment like a Leica M8?

the octopus should be purple.

I think the problem with this is that it can be confusing which purples were originally purple and which of them were black and have to be corrected. So the often-quoted wedding photos might be difficult to fix in Photoshop if the groom happens to wear a purple tie. Or if ten guests arrived in purple desses and another ten dressed in black, and of the ones dressed in black five wear synthetic and another five natural cloth. Of course this is a bit of a borderline case, but the main problem why people are freaking out is that the resulting behaviour appears somewhat erratic.

 

[ChrisPlatt]

I guess Leica hasn't "fixed" the M8 properly. 😉

Chris

 

[RogerDunham]

Mark,

I have a few of the Heliopan UV/Digital/Analog filters which are apparntly IR cut filters. I will receive them today and experiment with them. Have you had a chance to try out the Heliopan?

I bought the 55mm version because I thought it might work and its a difficult size to get in the B+w version but I still don t have my M8 yet. So I am interested . I read another thread where the tests showed that the heliopan filtered only part of the IR out when comapred to the B+w 486....but this might be fine for normal lighting and preferrable in some instances.

 

[jaapv]

See what happens to your face, when you are photographed with a M8?

 

[fgianni]

See what happens to your face, when you are photographed with a M8?

I find interesting the guy in the black suit on the right 😛