The real cost of a digital M

dave lackey said:
Not necessary. I do photo documentaries in book form. Any prints I need, I send out for professional printing.

BTDT...not worth the cost or my time.:angel:
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Dave do you use a specific software for creating the layout of the book?

In the past I have used the Book editor in the Aperture software for a family album and have been pleased with the results.

Interested to know what you have used.

Thanks
 
Just curious, but do people who are factoring in the cost of a computer as part of the conversion to digital really not own a computer already? I thought owning a computer was pretty much a given these days. I mean, you are on RFF...
 
hipsterdufus said:
Just curious, but do people who are factoring in the cost of a computer as part of the conversion to digital really not own a computer already? I thought owning a computer was pretty much a given these days. I mean, you are on RFF...
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I have a perfectly good computer system for all of my documentary work using scans up to 26mb. For the larger files, especially when photoshopped, I will have to buy a second system. THAT is not an expediture for messing around on forums, it is a business tool that I have to factor in.

The numbers above indicate that I need about $8000 after taxes to pay for a Leica digital M system that will produce what I need and the work flow will be more time-consuming. Whether it is $6k or $8k or $10k, the system must do what I want, period, with no make-do substitutes, otherwise I will not do it.

As far as saving on film processing and scanning costs...it really doesn't matter. Currently, I factor outsourced processing and scanning into the cost of the projects.

So, in summary, I am researching a move to digital for one reason only, a business decision to obtain a certain image character with the equipment I have chosen. Instant photographs mean nothing to me.

It is looking more and more like adding a few lenses to my R system is all that I need and with my M3, will be quite a bit cheaper for a long time rather than going with the M8/M9. And I haven't even figured in depreciation.:angel:
 
One of the real costs of a digital M for me would be the possibility of a major camera failure mid project and the scenario of a camera being off for repair for several weeks and a potential repair bill beyond my means.

It may never happen of course ... but it would be in my mind a little.
 
Dave,

I recently bought an used M8 that came with several batteries and an assortment of accessories. There have been a couple extra costs that I hadn't fully thought out. First was getting all the UV/IR filters for my lenses. 50 Summicron, 35 Summicron, and 21 SA which took a while to locate a 48mm filter for it. After some time using it I found the batteries that came with it were showing their age so I ordered two new batteries. I would anticipate buying two batteries right away after buying the camera. It is a real disappointment to be out working and have your batteries go dead.

Looking at how you show your work I think that Adobe Lightroom would be more than sufficient for your editing needs. Considering that you could still move a file from LR to PS for additional editing. One thing to keep in my with this is if you buy a new Apple computer running OS 10.7 your current version of PS will not be compatible forcing you to upgrade to CS5.

The iMac suggested earlier would also be my recommendation for the perfect balance of cost and performance. I do find myself doing most my editing on my Macbook Pro 15" over my MacPro tower due to the fact it allows me to edit whenever I have free time which is normally during my lunch break at work.

As for a Summilux lens. I wish I had one but tend to feel that I can get by with out that extra stop. I find that I use the 35mm lens far more often on the M8 due to the sensor crop since it is far closer to a 50mm on my film bodies. I now find myself considering a 28mm lens to give me the 35mm equivalent. This has been my most unexpected potential cost since I didn't foresee myself needing. Due to budget issues I will most likely find a Elmarit vs a Summicron.

Processing time. I spend less time processing files from the M8 than I did with film. Not having to scan negatives, spot them for dust, and then do editing saves a ton of time. I would say generally I spend about 30-60 minutes per file from the M8 that makes it to print. Compared to 2-3 hours per file if I was scanning film on the Imacon and then editing for print.

1. M8 - $2000ish with original accessories, two new batteries $260, UV/IR filter about $60 each. - CLA on the camera will run upwards of $500. M8.2 upgrade prices are nuts. I just spoke with Leica NJ last week about it. Not worth it in my mind. I can forward you the price list if you would be interested in taking a look.
2. Lens - I think others nailed that one.
3. Apple iMac or MBP - $2000-2500
4. Lightroom $80 and Photoshop CS5 upgrade $200 (assuming all is legit with CS2)
5. Time machine - 2 TB Hard Drive with FW800 - $250 macsales.com (I buy all my hard drives though them)

Hope this helps some.

rutter.
 
f6andBthere said:
One of the real costs of a digital M for me would be the possibility of a major camera failure mid project and the scenario of a camera being off for repair for several weeks and a potential repair bill beyond my means.

It may never happen of course ... but it would be in my mind a little.
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You know, that is really a good observation when it comes to being on-location 5 hours away with clients and events.;) With my present system, I have the M3 with the IIIf as a backup and the R4 with several Nikons as a backup but will replace the Nikon option with either another R4 (less than $200) or an R8 ($500) at some point.
 
jasonrutter said:
Dave,

I recently bought an used M8 that came with several batteries and an assortment of accessories. There have been a couple extra costs that I hadn't fully thought out. First was getting all the UV/IR filters for my lenses. 50 Summicron, 35 Summicron, and 21 SA which took a while to locate a 48mm filter for it. After some time using it I found the batteries that came with it were showing their age so I ordered two new batteries. I would anticipate buying two batteries right away after buying the camera. It is a real disappointment to be out working and have your batteries go dead.

Looking at how you show your work I think that Adobe Lightroom would be more than sufficient for your editing needs. Considering that you could still move a file from LR to PS for additional editing. One thing to keep in my with this is if you buy a new Apple computer running OS 10.7 your current version of PS will not be compatible forcing you to upgrade to CS5.

The iMac suggested earlier would also be my recommendation for the perfect balance of cost and performance. I do find myself doing most my editing on my Macbook Pro 15" over my MacPro tower due to the fact it allows me to edit whenever I have free time which is normally during my lunch break at work.

As for a Summilux lens. I wish I had one but tend to feel that I can get by with out that extra stop. I find that I use the 35mm lens far more often on the M8 due to the sensor crop since it is far closer to a 50mm on my film bodies. I now find myself considering a 28mm lens to give me the 35mm equivalent. This has been my most unexpected potential cost since I didn't foresee myself needing. Due to budget issues I will most likely find a Elmarit vs a Summicron.

Processing time. I spend less time processing files from the M8 than I did with film. Not having to scan negatives, spot them for dust, and then do editing saves a ton of time. I would say generally I spend about 30-60 minutes per file from the M8 that makes it to print. Compared to 2-3 hours per file if I was scanning film on the Imacon and then editing for print.

1. M8 - $2000ish with original accessories, two new batteries $260, UV/IR filter about $60 each. - CLA on the camera will run upwards of $500. M8.2 upgrade prices are nuts. I just spoke with Leica NJ last week about it. Not worth it in my mind. I can forward you the price list if you would be interested in taking a look.
2. Lens - I think others nailed that one.
3. Apple iMac or MBP - $2000-2500
4. Lightroom $80 and Photoshop CS5 upgrade $200 (assuming all is legit with CS2)
5. Time machine - 2 TB Hard Drive with FW800 - $250 macsales.com (I buy all my hard drives though them)

Hope this helps some.

rutter.
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Thank you, Jason... great stuff here. That is why I like hearing from you guys as all kinds of advice and recommendations come through the fog. Certainly gives me a lot to think about when I do make the switch.

Jason, good point about the PS upgrade and the CLA...this probably represents a total of about $5K for a good system...but the Lux will have to be worked in somewhere.:angel:
 
M8 used with a few extras like a new battery a Thumbs-up, etc. $2300.00.

Lenses: 2500-5000.00 used. (Make sure to include a 35mm f1.4 ASPH).

A decent computer. Forget PC's. Go with an iMac, 27 in monitor, 2 TB HD, 16 mbyte ram, extra video ram: 3000.00.

A few new pieces of software figure $300.00

That should do it.
 
While a 27'' iMac would be an upgrade for me, my 21.5'' iMac is doing pretty good with CS5.5 and LR3 (just sucks I won't be able to upgrade either).
 
jsrockit said:
This should be that if you like to emulate the look of B&W film, this could be useful. Outside of that, it isn't necessary.
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It's funny. I don't know if it does even a halfway decent job of emulating the films it offers. But I just love the look of the conversions it creates.
I'm sure it's possible to do excellent B&W conversions without Silver Efex Pro. But for me, it's the one piece of software I would hate to lose.
 
Godfrey said:
M8 :: $2000
Spare batt :: $130
16G card :: $60
CV Nokton 40mm f/1.4 :: $650
Filter for color work :: $80
MacBook Pro refurb :: $1300
Lightroom :: $250

You can do with just that and be happy for years.
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I would not recommend anything bigger than a 4 or 8gb SD card. Cards will fail. 16gb is a lot of imagery to loose!
 
This is a fun game. A few things in life are cheap but good; other things are necessary but cost real money; sometimes you get what you need without a lot of pain.

I agree with the OP about printing. Prints are cheaper and higher quality by outsourcing.

Backup: Essential, but not expensive.

Calibrated, wide-gamut monitor: Essential, kind of expensive. Do not even THINK of using a laptop screen. I don't think the iMac screen is sufficient.

8G RAM Memory: Essential, not expensive. ($50/ 8G at OWC!)

Computer: Any apple (laptop or desk-side) from the last couple of years, just bump the memory ot 8G or 24G at OWC. Try refurbished. See Diglloyd.com for optimal advice.

Software: ACR is essential for processing DNGs. Adobe Bridge comes with Photoshop and gives you ACR, and Photoshop gives you the best localized touch-up.

Lightroom and Aperture are very useful for managing a large number of photos, but unless you need the fancy library/DB and publishing features, you can do all your tagging and editing in Bridge/ACR & Photoshop.
 
hipsterdufus said:
Just curious, but do people who are factoring in the cost of a computer as part of the conversion to digital really not own a computer already? I thought owning a computer was pretty much a given these days. I mean, you are on RFF...
Click to expand...

Lots of people own lightweight systems with cold and power efficient CPU, small HDD and not a lots of RAM, yet very basic TN screen. Perfectly good for web browsing, communications and such. Not a good choice for image processing, though.
 
dave lackey said:
The numbers above indicate that I need about $8000 after taxes to pay for a Leica digital M system that will produce what I need and the work flow will be more time-consuming.
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I can't really see the workflow being more time consuming. Yes, it is tempting to keep tweaking an image and that can gobble up the hours, but a good RAW conversion will take less time than it takes to put a negative in the scanner or into an enlarger. Any further adjustments can certainly be done in less time than a scan takes, or for a print to come out of the fix.

This assumes you are using your thumbnail images to edit, and not thinking you need to do 200 RAW conversions if you made 200 exposures. If a good hit rate for those images you want to take further is, say, as high as 20 out of 200 you could do that is less time than it would take to scan a film to make a contact sheet. Even if you spent the same amount of time overall in front of the PC instead of darkroom printing or scanning for those theoretical 200 shots, the time should have been spent more productively because of the finer adjustments you can make to get the perfect image.

Steve
 
Jamie Pillers said:
Second, if you aren't already familiar with this, there's a new type of DVD-type disc storage system that's being rolled out this year. Its called M-Disc. You can read about it here: http://millenniata.com/ These discs are supposedly able to provide archival stability for multi-hundreds of years! They don't cost much more than any other DVD storage system on the market. Might be worth while keeping an eye on this.
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If you want a Mac there are many choices. I'd either go with the iMacs or Macbook Pros, a Macbook Air isn't there yet for me in terms of graphic processing.

If you want a serious PC you could build it yourself by getting the parts from Newegg. But if you don't want to go that route I'd suggest going with Falcon Northwest. Makes the best PCs out there by a mile. They are a little expensive though. Alienware is another option.

All the best!
 
Wow...great, great ideas and thoughts! I appreciate these all very much!

Keith, Dan, thank you for the kind words.

Presently I am working on two small town projects, one with a pespective from a cyclist so waiting a bit on warmer weather and weekends.

Also, am working on a huge project (not in terms of printed pages as such) in North Carolina. Research alone will consume the next several months. Shooting begins in April and will take a half dozen trips. Color, most likely. B/W if I can get my story board the way I want it. Or maybe a mixture..

Depending on my business situation, I may well shoot the entire project with film just as I have been doing. Time will tell.:angel:
 
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