The "Sin" Of Being A RFF Amateur

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Pitxu said:
I must point out that from now on there will be no chronological order to my avatars.

I say this so that you will not think that I can grow a beard in a few hours, or that my barber has gone mad...😉
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Our impression of you is chameleon-like, however you do it behind the scenes.
 
I think that Ruben's original post is very broadly about respect. A bit of a ramble, but not pretending to be anything else. I enjoyed following his thinking and sense of pride and care for RFF. I'm glad for the mention of this as an international forum. Pretty incredible to see on a single page "origins" from around the world----likewise, to glance at, sometimes dwell on, international galleries in which people struggle with similar challenges.

Maybe the post would have fared better in the Philosophy section where the posts are more about how think about photography than how to do it---both share the center of the photography endeavor.
 
I miss the old days of RFF. But then, everything must change. Personally, I don't think RFF changed for the better. Here's why: Previously, the "experts" at RFF where much more gracious than the new crop of "experts" who tend to look down their noses at us rather than be helpful.
 
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Ignoring both the warnings about over-generalizing and being 100% sober, I'll make this comment:
Artistic elitism amongst the small percentage of gifted people, due to worries of increased competition or their own insecurities concerning their talent, is the reason most of them are starving. Instead of encouraging and educating the people who have disposable income and would actually buy their art, they routinely patronize, condescend, and make the general public feel like they are so far removed from understanding what art is that it's no use even trying....
And it's not just artists peeing on the general public, they go after each other. I wonder how some photographic geniuses here would feel if a painter came on and called photography an inferior art form, which seems to be the general consensus in the art world. Oh, the infamy!
 
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It seems to me that a small new group of highly verbal "experts" is more interested in proving their intellectual/artistic/photographic superiority, rather than helping those less expert. IMO, there is a bully mentality becoming more prevalent at RFF, where some folks' focus seems to be on putting others down, in order to look better themselves. This is very unfortunate, IMO. This was not the way it used to be at RFF.
 
I honour the experts for their opinions on things on which they are expert. When the conversation goes off topic to politics, values, college quality, etc. they are just punters like the rest of us. Unfortunately they tend to deliver themselves of these opinions with the same sense of expert entitlement that they have for things photographic. It's obnoxious.

/T
 
Roger Hicks said:
OK, I'll bite.
Junior colleges are a very good way to discourage anyone from thinking for themselves. They are a cynical way to disguise youth unemployment while maintaining maximum control over the aspiring working class, by selling them cheap seats in the middle class.

To a very large extent they appeal to third-rate students, and are staffed by fourth-rate teachers. Of course there are many noble exceptions, but depressingly many are holdovers from an earlier era: today, they would have the utmost difficulty in being hired.

How do I know? Let's just say that I'm a qualified teacher and lecturer (and know what that's worth) who learned a fair amount about the Californian education system when I lived there, including being offered some jobs, and being turned down for others.
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I missed this earlier in all the other funny stuff.

Okay, I'll reply. That you would assume your own single experience allows you to draw those conclusions about the entire California Jr. college system, speaks volumes of your qualifications and judgement. Maybe it's different in science than whatever field you were 'in', but I know five teachers in bay area jr. colleges who have more passion and ability for teaching than most 'University' professors. Fourth-rate teachers? I know not all of the teachers are great, and I know not all are bad, just like any teaching environment. I learned this in, like, 4th grade, dude. For me, that brings a lot of your judgements into question......
 
OT
• Fred, is clear, consise, articulate, human, knowledgeable, and tolerant. I think that’s pretty good in my books. I’m mystified why people are having a hard time with his posts.
• Dadsm3, there are lots of people out there who aren’t like that with cameras. See something you like make an enquiry. I do and haven’t had any issues yet. However I’m not sure all photography is art, so that’s a valid criticism of photography. Doesn’t mean it’s less important in the scheme of things though.
 
I think Frank may have hit the nail on the head - what is an expert. I havefriends from photographic clubs that I was in as a teenager (the 80s) who are now well into their retirement years and these guys take great pictures which would hold up in any salon but are only ever displayed in their own homes for their own interest and families and friends enjoyment. From their open encouragement and gracious time I learnt so much about composition and light, but never anything about kit being in the main manual workers their equipment was mainly what they could afford. At the time Practica and Pentax clones.

They never expressed concern about controlling bokeh etc they just knew the kit they had very well and used the potential that each bit had. They are my experts.

By a strange twist that had nothing to do with photography directly, I teach physics and my expertise is optics _ I have actually certificates that say so so it must be true 🙂 . But does that make me an "expert" no it doesnt - it means I understand why certain lenses do certainthings. But then I guess if a camera magazine paid me to write down my often subjective opinions (and my opinions are subjective) then I guess in the eyes of some I would be an "expert"

take expert with a big pinch of salt and regard everyones knowledge here as useful and important and just help others where we ourselves have some knowledge - that is what makes a great forum
 
Talking about experts, we have a corner called Coffee with Experts. There I have had a few exchanges with two great folks, Peter and Tom. Specially with Tom Abrahamson.

He is an extremely warm pale, helping everyone. But it seems to me that part of his expertize is in the very fact he is aware that the most sacred truths are still to be revised, put on tryial, checked again. And this is precisely the point where he meets the newbie in a common denominator. Because the newbie tends to ask again for the most basic, the fundamentals. And this is the challenge Tom and the other experts are happy to review every time from the beginning. Hence is talent to talk with the newbie at the same level, on the same floor. This is wisdom. This is Greatness.

Cheers,
Ruben
 
It would be extremely helpful if we could have some new forum tags:

- <you_will_respect_my_authority>
- <rhetoric_bollocks>
- <havent_taken_a_picture_in_years_but_i_do_have_a_degree_in_some_kind_of_art_form>
- <this_is_only_my_opinion_but_what_i_am_saying_is_right>

I'm sure that would help the less fortunate of us who can't really tell the difference of horse ****, bull **** and chicken ****.
 
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cirque said:
It would be extremely helpful if we could have some new forum tags:

- <you_will_respect_my_authority>
- <rhetoric_bollocks>
- <havent_taken_a_picture_in_years_but_i_do_have_a_degree_in_some_kind_of_art_form>
- <this_is_only_my_opinion_but_what_i_am_saying_is_right>

I'm sure that would help the less fortunate of us who can't really tell the difference of horse ****, bull **** and chicken ****.
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Welcome Cirque. The perfect first post. Much as I would like to hear the sound of overinflated egos going pop at your words I fear it won't happen.

Regards,

Bill
 
Dave Wilkinson said:
What an entertaining eight pages!! .....much better than all this 'what's your favourite f stop'...or 'show us your box brownie' nonsense!!! 😀
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Well, yes.

Hell, even I would not defend to the death some of the views I put forward. But equally, I'm amazed at the people who make their own statements ex cathedra and then get all upset at an equally robust rebuttal.

Cheers,

R.
 
Roger Hicks said:
Same here. And surprisingly many of them agree with me.

'Lifetime learning' is for many a cruel hoax. Those who do not learn for the pleasure of learning are forced to acquire bits of paper in order to jump through corporatist hoops, and those who do learn for the pleasure of learning are often faced with overly rigid curricula which removes the pleasure. How many people do you know who can't get a particular job because they haven't got the necessary piece of paper?



Yes, my post was argumentative. But it was a straight reaction to your apparently blind faith in formal training and bits of paper.

Cheers,

R.
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Roger, this brings to mind my own training, (over forty five years ago!) as fitter/machinist/toolmaker,- I served six years apprenticeship (15-21) at bench and machine under some fine 'old school' craftsmen. These days, it seems a young man can attend college and a small amount of hands on experience, and quallify as a tradesman, some do indeed prove competant, but quite a few I've worked with have been puzzled observers in challenging situations!

Regards, Dave.
 
Roger Hicks said:
Well, yes.

Hell, even I would not defend to the death some of the views I put forward. But equally, I'm amazed at the people who make their own statements ex cathedra and then get all upset at an equally robust rebuttal.

Cheers,

R.
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Hmm, a good point and one which should be considered as we wake up and click back into this banter.

Let me ask, we have tip-toed a wee closer to that make believe moving grey line. Please refrain from personal attacks or criticisms and discuss the topics. I think as it have been said, there is a dynamic in Internet discussions that just makes these types of comments harmful and necessary to avoid.

I am not saying you can't disagree, or that I am seeing chalk flying up and am ready to call foul as we toe the line, but please be considerate of the forum rules and even each other (though you may not like each other's views).

Thank you.
 
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