ClaremontPhoto
Jon Claremont
Roger Hicks said:
I never want to be a professional photographer.
An amateur can take the photos they want, not the photos somebody else wants.
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
Pitxu, honestly, you seem to have a problem. You seem to think there's somebody attacking somebody all the time. I am referring mainly to your post in the beginning, post no. 11.
Well let me tell you a big news: Nobody is attacking you and nobody was attacking anybody in this thread. Not the pros, not the amateurs, not the street photographers, not the anti-street photographers.
The original post of Ruben was, in a sentence, in a HALF sentence, about the opposite. About OT attacking anybody. It was about peace and respect.
Or that's how i understood it just before i went to sleep.
People spend here more time or less time depending on their available free time, their willingness to get involved and in their temperament.
But the fact is, EVERY one of us spends here an ignorable small amount of time compared to a lifetime.
And sometimes even a full lifetime is not enough to know somebody well.
So we can attack, defend, judge and criticize each other the whole day, but at the end of the day WE MUST KEEP SOME RESPECT BECAUSE WE KNOW SH|T ABOUT WHO IS WHO AND WHAT WE DO IN REAL LIFE AND WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE WE ACTUALLY ARE.
Well let me tell you an example. I have had two painters in the broader family. Not picassoes, of course. But reasonable ones. Also, i have a number of friends that were doing arts faculty. Most of them had exhibitions in some place, in some form. Still, i am not touthing this fact as MY merit and not considering that i know more about painting, or art in general, than anybody else here, just because it is not MY merit, and just because i DON'T know what you all know about the subject, and what your values are.
Similarly, must talk about the gear side. I have a Ph.D. in physics, and more precisely, in experimental magneto-optics. I consider that i am rather ... experienced in optics, and in the technology around it. Still i KNOW there are a number of people here on RFF that, just because of their practical experience, know much more about the camera lenses etcetera than myself. I am glad i can learn something from them.
If i see somebody makes a conceptual mistakes when saying something, i try to correct him in a respectful manner if it is important. Mostly people are taking it nicely as a well intended comment, not as an attack.
so this is my addition to the thread, thank you very much for the patience, have a nice weekend.
Well let me tell you a big news: Nobody is attacking you and nobody was attacking anybody in this thread. Not the pros, not the amateurs, not the street photographers, not the anti-street photographers.
The original post of Ruben was, in a sentence, in a HALF sentence, about the opposite. About OT attacking anybody. It was about peace and respect.
Or that's how i understood it just before i went to sleep.
People spend here more time or less time depending on their available free time, their willingness to get involved and in their temperament.
But the fact is, EVERY one of us spends here an ignorable small amount of time compared to a lifetime.
And sometimes even a full lifetime is not enough to know somebody well.
So we can attack, defend, judge and criticize each other the whole day, but at the end of the day WE MUST KEEP SOME RESPECT BECAUSE WE KNOW SH|T ABOUT WHO IS WHO AND WHAT WE DO IN REAL LIFE AND WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE WE ACTUALLY ARE.
Well let me tell you an example. I have had two painters in the broader family. Not picassoes, of course. But reasonable ones. Also, i have a number of friends that were doing arts faculty. Most of them had exhibitions in some place, in some form. Still, i am not touthing this fact as MY merit and not considering that i know more about painting, or art in general, than anybody else here, just because it is not MY merit, and just because i DON'T know what you all know about the subject, and what your values are.
Similarly, must talk about the gear side. I have a Ph.D. in physics, and more precisely, in experimental magneto-optics. I consider that i am rather ... experienced in optics, and in the technology around it. Still i KNOW there are a number of people here on RFF that, just because of their practical experience, know much more about the camera lenses etcetera than myself. I am glad i can learn something from them.
If i see somebody makes a conceptual mistakes when saying something, i try to correct him in a respectful manner if it is important. Mostly people are taking it nicely as a well intended comment, not as an attack.
so this is my addition to the thread, thank you very much for the patience, have a nice weekend.
pesphoto
Veteran
i think im done
DavidH
Overweight and over here
I'm reminded of a Gary Larson cartoon - 'Four Kinds of People' - a guy sat in front of a glass half filled with water...
"This glass is half full"
"This glass is half empty"
"This glass is half full...no half empty...no half full..."
"Hey, I ordered a cheeseburger!"
A few too many cheeseburgers here of late...
"This glass is half full"
"This glass is half empty"
"This glass is half full...no half empty...no half full..."
"Hey, I ordered a cheeseburger!"
A few too many cheeseburgers here of late...
giovatony
Well-known
Ruben, My advice to you is to never expose your inner feelings to strangers.
They will only make chopped liver out of it.
John
They will only make chopped liver out of it.
John
darkkavenger
Massimiliano Mortillaro
I don't see what is so special in the RFF community. It is (or used to be, rather, since most of the knowledgeable people left) a nice hub to meet photographers from all over the world and share knowledge on a common passion.
Otherwise, I don't see in what it is "special", but maybe that's because I'm comparing with other communities of people aimed at actually helping achieving real objectives (greenpeace, medecins sans frontieres and others NGOs) rather than helping petting our little egos about how great photographers we are, how shiny are our cameras, how mine is better than yours, how warm & fuzzy inside we feel, and how it's time for a group hug.
This should probably be my last post either on RFF, since there have been so few interesting posts related to cameras & photography itself, and how now most of the threads seem to be launched by persons who talk about their state of mind (ok ok I also need to vent out from time to time, but gosh not everyday) rather than discussing about photography.
I even got trapped myself in this by "contributing" with this kind of reply, but for heaven's sake if you guys have a need to start a new thread everyday about your morning idea (or insomnia thoughts) which is not photography related start a blog, and post there.
Feel free to pick on me if you want, and have a nice saturday afternoon.
I'm out to take photos in the rain.
Cheers & hasta la vista,
Max
[edited to fix some typos]
Otherwise, I don't see in what it is "special", but maybe that's because I'm comparing with other communities of people aimed at actually helping achieving real objectives (greenpeace, medecins sans frontieres and others NGOs) rather than helping petting our little egos about how great photographers we are, how shiny are our cameras, how mine is better than yours, how warm & fuzzy inside we feel, and how it's time for a group hug.
This should probably be my last post either on RFF, since there have been so few interesting posts related to cameras & photography itself, and how now most of the threads seem to be launched by persons who talk about their state of mind (ok ok I also need to vent out from time to time, but gosh not everyday) rather than discussing about photography.
I even got trapped myself in this by "contributing" with this kind of reply, but for heaven's sake if you guys have a need to start a new thread everyday about your morning idea (or insomnia thoughts) which is not photography related start a blog, and post there.
Feel free to pick on me if you want, and have a nice saturday afternoon.
I'm out to take photos in the rain.
Cheers & hasta la vista,
Max
[edited to fix some typos]
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M. Valdemar
Well-known
There's the "social" side of photography forums where someone posts a picture of their dog, their not-so-attractive wife, their "test" photos with a new lens, and everyone is expected to reply "Great, beautiful, you must be proud, enjoy it, very nice!!, etc etc etc"
That's the polite and mannerly way to preserve a group dynamic. Nobody is expected to get trashed by the crowd, they want positive reaffirmation of their status and pleasure of being a hobbyist.
That's fine, for social networking, for a bunch of pals hanging out, etc. Nobody wants to hurt someone else's feelings.
On the other hand, if anyone is to improve their skill or "eye" (which may or may not be possible), and posts a photo for critique, is it fair to let go full blast with the truth?
Can you say, "that's mediocre", or "it's a OK amateur snapshot", or "take up another hobby"?
You can't say anything "bad" if you want to preserve the social status quo.
You can if you want to "teach", but you can quickly become ostracized as every comment which doesn't come with a "smiley face" is taken as an assault or insult.
On the other hand, this is also an equipment forum. Some people have intensely profound technical knowledge but little photographic skill. (A certain Leica reviewer PUTTS me in the frame of mind to think about this). A person like this can know every MTF curve of a lens, but he can make even gorgeous nordic blondes look like plain janes in his pictures.
Do you razz this kind of person every time they post a photo?
So maybe there needs to be a "socializing photography" category, where everything is warm and fuzzy, and a "no holds barred" photo posting category where everyone can let someone else have it with both barrels with no hard feelings.
Is that impossible?
If you ask for it, no complaining when you get it. I used to be a magazine editor. It was my job to separate the wheat from the chaff. One has to hurt feelings, everyone does not have equal talent. The question is, where and when is it appropriate to say so out loud?
The "warm and fuzzy" way makes for good friendships but creates artistic mediocrity.
.
That's the polite and mannerly way to preserve a group dynamic. Nobody is expected to get trashed by the crowd, they want positive reaffirmation of their status and pleasure of being a hobbyist.
That's fine, for social networking, for a bunch of pals hanging out, etc. Nobody wants to hurt someone else's feelings.
On the other hand, if anyone is to improve their skill or "eye" (which may or may not be possible), and posts a photo for critique, is it fair to let go full blast with the truth?
Can you say, "that's mediocre", or "it's a OK amateur snapshot", or "take up another hobby"?
You can't say anything "bad" if you want to preserve the social status quo.
You can if you want to "teach", but you can quickly become ostracized as every comment which doesn't come with a "smiley face" is taken as an assault or insult.
On the other hand, this is also an equipment forum. Some people have intensely profound technical knowledge but little photographic skill. (A certain Leica reviewer PUTTS me in the frame of mind to think about this). A person like this can know every MTF curve of a lens, but he can make even gorgeous nordic blondes look like plain janes in his pictures.
Do you razz this kind of person every time they post a photo?
So maybe there needs to be a "socializing photography" category, where everything is warm and fuzzy, and a "no holds barred" photo posting category where everyone can let someone else have it with both barrels with no hard feelings.
Is that impossible?
If you ask for it, no complaining when you get it. I used to be a magazine editor. It was my job to separate the wheat from the chaff. One has to hurt feelings, everyone does not have equal talent. The question is, where and when is it appropriate to say so out loud?
The "warm and fuzzy" way makes for good friendships but creates artistic mediocrity.
.
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crawdiddy
qu'est-ce que c'est?
M. Valdemar said:
You seem to be the sort of person who thinks in black and white, and I'm not referring to chromogenic emulsions here. You can either grace our forum with your valuable opinion or trade chit-chat. But nothing in between. Nuance is lost on you apparently. I can't speculate about which artistically excellent magazine you edited before. All I can say is: "there are only 10 kinds of people in the world-- those who understand binary math and those who don't."
Pherdinand
the snow must go on
great!
I've only read the last three posts but i agree with all three of you! (that is, sitemistic, M. and Pitxu)
So no group hug sorry, but glad to be back to a peaceful and deep consensus on superficial things
I've only read the last three posts but i agree with all three of you! (that is, sitemistic, M. and Pitxu)
So no group hug sorry, but glad to be back to a peaceful and deep consensus on superficial things
Gumby
Veteran
M. Valdemar said:
Gee, I didn't see much "brutal" about what you said.
mackigator
Well-known
Paraphrased slogan from Shakespeare's pizza in Columbia, MO:
"no shirt, no shoes, no problem - go ahead and send your mom in"
"no shirt, no shoes, no problem - go ahead and send your mom in"
Pablito
coco frío
bsdunek said:
Well, there you go!
cmogi10
Bodhisattva
This is my favorite thread...
Ever
Ever
mike goldberg
The Peaceful Pacific
Hi all,
Sometimes a Thread ends up like the old joke, "How many rabbis can dance on the head of a pin?" Here's two quotes from above that I like:
An amateur can take the photos they want, not the photos somebody else wants.
Jon
This is TRUE. After 15 years of pro work in the 1990's, I QUIT And...
The "warm and fuzzy" way makes for good friendships but creates artistic mediocrity.
M. Valdemar
I don't know if I would call RFF networking & friendships "warm and fuzzy," yet there comes a time, that we load up our gear, go out alone and get focused. To me Pro and Amateur as descriptive terms, matter little. I see most of the RFF & DSLRx buddies that I'm in contact with, as serious and committed photographers.
Finally, there are days when it's cold, or I'm not feeling up to snuff, and a few days go by that I haven't taken a picture. In the meantime, there's online buddies to rap with... and that's great
Sometimes a Thread ends up like the old joke, "How many rabbis can dance on the head of a pin?" Here's two quotes from above that I like:
An amateur can take the photos they want, not the photos somebody else wants.
Jon
This is TRUE. After 15 years of pro work in the 1990's, I QUIT
And...The "warm and fuzzy" way makes for good friendships but creates artistic mediocrity.
M. Valdemar
I don't know if I would call RFF networking & friendships "warm and fuzzy," yet there comes a time, that we load up our gear, go out alone and get focused. To me Pro and Amateur as descriptive terms, matter little. I see most of the RFF & DSLRx buddies that I'm in contact with, as serious and committed photographers.
Finally, there are days when it's cold, or I'm not feeling up to snuff, and a few days go by that I haven't taken a picture. In the meantime, there's online buddies to rap with... and that's great
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Gumby
Veteran
cmogi10 said:
This is a great thread but I'm not sure about the "ever" part. I keep coming back to see if Pitxu's avatar has changed again.
BillP
Rangefinder General
I have followed this thread with interest, and let it meander before contributing.
Let me explain at the outset where I position myself - my "label" if you prefer.
I regard myself as a "Gentleman Amateur". To me, this means that my photography occupies a place in my spare time that means I am a little more than a dilettante, but far from being an obsessive compulsive. I shoot photos to please myself. Some have won competitions; some have made a modest sum for me, as have my writings on the subject. By some standards that would make me a professional, but I would baulk at that description as it would imply that I had the time, patience, skill and inclination to make a living with a camera - something that I can appreciate and admire, but I have no desire to emulate.
Perhaps my approach to the pro/am "split" is best explained by this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentlemen_v_Players
I do not see that there is any shame in being an amateur, nor any automatic accolade in being a professional. Equally, one's opinions matter not one jot or iota more or less because of how one earns an honest crust.
One of the great things about the interweb is that we are all rendered equal, until we put finger to keyboard. "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." There are a number of "empty vessels" on RFF, as there are in many similar places, that make most noise. Sometimes they do so enough to drown out the voices of reason, and experience. The extra dimension here, as on other photography-related fora, is that we can choose to put our photographic talents where our mouths are, and indeed let our images speak for us. It appears that those who choose not to do so, and who then criticise the work and tastes of others, have a special place reserved for them in the personal hell of many other photographers.
You can look at my images by following the links in my signature. You can like, dislike, comment, or remain silent. But you can gain an insight into my level of technical competence and my ability to present my thoughts in a cogent and structured visual language, which in turn enables you to get a "feel" for me, "good" or "bad".
Let me say this. I really don't care what label you decide to apply to yourself, or to your photography. I'm not bothered where you live, how you grew up, what photographers you idolise, what equipment you use or what subjects you favour. You can be stimulated by imagery or gear, by Contax, Kiev, Nikon or Leica, but you are worthy of my paying you attention by virtue of your being another human being.
Threads like these veer either side of the line between being stimulating and being corrosive. Perhaps if a few more of us took ourselves a little less seriously we could rub along together a little better and discuss and debate without being destructive.
Regards,
Bill
Let me explain at the outset where I position myself - my "label" if you prefer.
I regard myself as a "Gentleman Amateur". To me, this means that my photography occupies a place in my spare time that means I am a little more than a dilettante, but far from being an obsessive compulsive. I shoot photos to please myself. Some have won competitions; some have made a modest sum for me, as have my writings on the subject. By some standards that would make me a professional, but I would baulk at that description as it would imply that I had the time, patience, skill and inclination to make a living with a camera - something that I can appreciate and admire, but I have no desire to emulate.
Perhaps my approach to the pro/am "split" is best explained by this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentlemen_v_Players
I do not see that there is any shame in being an amateur, nor any automatic accolade in being a professional. Equally, one's opinions matter not one jot or iota more or less because of how one earns an honest crust.
One of the great things about the interweb is that we are all rendered equal, until we put finger to keyboard. "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." There are a number of "empty vessels" on RFF, as there are in many similar places, that make most noise. Sometimes they do so enough to drown out the voices of reason, and experience. The extra dimension here, as on other photography-related fora, is that we can choose to put our photographic talents where our mouths are, and indeed let our images speak for us. It appears that those who choose not to do so, and who then criticise the work and tastes of others, have a special place reserved for them in the personal hell of many other photographers.
You can look at my images by following the links in my signature. You can like, dislike, comment, or remain silent. But you can gain an insight into my level of technical competence and my ability to present my thoughts in a cogent and structured visual language, which in turn enables you to get a "feel" for me, "good" or "bad".
Let me say this. I really don't care what label you decide to apply to yourself, or to your photography. I'm not bothered where you live, how you grew up, what photographers you idolise, what equipment you use or what subjects you favour. You can be stimulated by imagery or gear, by Contax, Kiev, Nikon or Leica, but you are worthy of my paying you attention by virtue of your being another human being.
Threads like these veer either side of the line between being stimulating and being corrosive. Perhaps if a few more of us took ourselves a little less seriously we could rub along together a little better and discuss and debate without being destructive.
Regards,
Bill
mackigator
Well-known
I think I've a new advice policy!
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brachal
Refrigerated User
Sheesh. What a thread. Does any of it really matter?
I'm an amateur in every sense of the word. I'm not a very good photographer, but I enjoy taking pictures and try to improve myself in the limited time I have available to actually take pictures. Does that make me bad? Or less worthy of being here than somebody with more time, experience or talent?
I know more about some gear than some people, and less than other people. I try to answer questions about it when I think I have an answer. I try to respect the knowledge of people who have more than I do, and I never try to make somebody feel foolish for knowing less than I do. I try to keep an open mind. If I disagree with you, I will at least be polite about it.
I'm aware that the nature of posting in a forum like this leaves plenty of room for misinterpretation of the author's intent, so I try to assume the best. I'm also aware that we have members from all over the world, so I always remember that English is a second or third language for them.
And in conclusion, I'd like to say that I Like Pie.
I'm an amateur in every sense of the word. I'm not a very good photographer, but I enjoy taking pictures and try to improve myself in the limited time I have available to actually take pictures. Does that make me bad? Or less worthy of being here than somebody with more time, experience or talent?
I know more about some gear than some people, and less than other people. I try to answer questions about it when I think I have an answer. I try to respect the knowledge of people who have more than I do, and I never try to make somebody feel foolish for knowing less than I do. I try to keep an open mind. If I disagree with you, I will at least be polite about it.
I'm aware that the nature of posting in a forum like this leaves plenty of room for misinterpretation of the author's intent, so I try to assume the best. I'm also aware that we have members from all over the world, so I always remember that English is a second or third language for them.
And in conclusion, I'd like to say that I Like Pie.
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
You've hit it in the nail.M. Valdemar said:
I've noticed that, generally, people in the U.K. and current- and formerly-British colonies, the mere mention of something "negative", that is, something that doesn't make you feel good, is a big no-no. Given that "propriety" is often confused with "no comments", and sticking to talking to the weather, or last night's meal, sincerity, as Oscar Wilde found out, is a very dangerous thing.
So people who are not used to sincerity being "feedback" (and at that, positive), usually give you sincerity in hostile terms --because that is the only thing it could possibly mean to them.
And when hostile sincerity is given, hostile reactions take place.
Some have been...err...sincere enough to say that they cannot possibly give constructive criticism, because the only time they could say something is when they could say "something nice". So when they can't say "your photo could use some work here because..." because it isn't "your photo is so great", the perceived opposite is delivered, well, in not nice terms.
So...carry on. Cheerio.
navilluspm
Well-known
I am, what I consider, a novice in potography, but progessing. I am starting to get more pictures that I like to keep. I used to post pictures, but now I don't. (I did post a set a couple of days ago and appreciated Fred's correcting my understanding of the "3D" effect, and to introducing me to a new term concerning light and dark - although I have to look up the term again, but I at least remember the meaning). I guess the reason I don't post a lot is: I am taking the pictures for me. My goal is not to go professional (I have an occupation I thoroughly enjoy) but as a release. Who cares what people think if I like them. The world doesn't have to like them if I do.
There is only one reason for me to post a photo: to share a story through a photograph with my friends or to grow in knowledge.
I like constructive criticism: it helps me grow and learn. Construtive criticism does not say: "You have no talent, get rid of your camera", but rather: "Your picture is boring or not beautiful to me for this, this, this, and this reason."
Constructive criticism always adresses the art, and helps the person become better with in his talents, or to learn new talents.
Just my 2 cents.
There is only one reason for me to post a photo: to share a story through a photograph with my friends or to grow in knowledge.
I like constructive criticism: it helps me grow and learn. Construtive criticism does not say: "You have no talent, get rid of your camera", but rather: "Your picture is boring or not beautiful to me for this, this, this, and this reason."
Constructive criticism always adresses the art, and helps the person become better with in his talents, or to learn new talents.
Just my 2 cents.
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