The "slow" 21mm's - Se 21f3.4/SA 21f3.4/C Biogon 21f4.5 and more

[bdeyes]

Thank you Tom for the gorgeous shots of Falling Water. Your observations of its darkness and crampness are very interesting. I would like to know if your access to the interior was anything out of the ordinary for a typical tourist: i.e., whether you had to get special permission to either access certain interior areas, or take the photos.

Would your experience of the interior have been much different if you had visited during another season?

Thanks,
Mike

 

[Tom A]

Mike, I think because it was arranged by LHSA (Leica Historical Society of America)we were given a bit more freedom to shoot the interior stuff. I really dont know if a "regular" visitor would have the same access. I suspect that if you talked to them beforehand, they would be amenable to interior shots. They did not allow tripods etc - which makes sense as it is a bit cramped and carrying backpacks, tripods etc could upset the order of things. They tend to split groups in to 10-12 people at the time - just to avoid traffic jams in narrow stairs and doorways. Well worth visiting.

 

[Tom A]

Tom, any preference for the Ricoh over the C-Biogon? I enjoy the Biogon however at times I desire a bit more speed. The Ricoh / Super Elmar are looking appealing as well as a converted G Biogon f/2.8.

The C-Biogon is a better lens - and much cheaper than the "collectible" Ricoh - particularly the black version. In my opinion the the C-Biogon is still the best 21 around - with the Super Elmar close behind. At f3.4 the Super Elmar is astounding, dead even across the field etc - but @ a $1500 premium over the 21 C-Biogon - the Biogon still holds the top-spot, even with a 3/4 f stop penalty in speed. Either lens is better than we really need or, in most cases we can't use the full capability of the lens.
To make full use of it, you need to put either lens on a tripod, with a spirit level and slow film (tech Pan/Pan F etc).

 

[Nokton48]

I recall I stopped to shoot several minutes inside Falling Water, and the group moved on. It was then a catch-up, and finding the group again was a challenge, as the space is a bit of a maze inside. Another group was not that far behind us.

 

[tstermitz]

I visited Falling Water over Thangksgiving weekend last year, and caught the last tour of the day. That was special because when it ended I could photograph at dusk with the lights coming on.

Our tour guide said no photographs inside, and when I snapped a shot on one of the verandas, she nicely reminded me not to take pictures. I think it is more about preventing lots of flashes disturbing the atmosphere. You can do special, longer tours which include permission for taking photos.

Falling Water is rather smaller than you would expect, (certainly when compared with suburban US McMansions of the 1990s and 2000s), and as Tom says the hallways are downright cramped. Guest bedrooms are very small, but each suite has its own private veranda. As they say, Falling Water creates a living environment within the forest, not separate from the forest. There is a wonderful, wonderful sense of space.

This picture was shot with Sensia 100 (I would have much prefered velvia) with my M6 and a 50mm summicron. I was pushing 1/15 second and leaning against a tree because I had lost my leica tabletop tripod the day before.

 

[Tom A]

I visited Falling Water over Thangksgiving weekend last year, and caught the last tour of the day. That was special because when it ended I could photograph at dusk with the lights coming on.

Our tour guide said no photographs inside, and when I snapped a shot on one of the verandas, she nicely reminded me not to take pictures. I think it is more about preventing lots of flashes disturbing the atmosphere. You can do special, longer tours which include permission for taking photos.

Falling Water is rather smaller than you would expect, (certainly when compared with suburban US McMansions of the 1990s and 2000s), and as Tom says the hallways are downright cramped. Guest bedrooms are very small, but each suite has its own private veranda. As they say, Falling Water creates a living environment within the forest, not separate from the forest. There is a wonderful, wonderful sense of space.

This picture was shot with Sensia 100 (I would have much prefered velvia) with my M6 and a 50mm summicron. I was pushing 1/15 second and leaning against a tree because I had lost my leica tabletop tripod the day before.

Great shot. I like the interior lights coming through.
Tom

 

[raid]

Tom,
You once wrote that you recall the W-Rokkor 21mm/4 not to be sharp. Is that something you are sure of? Thanks.

 

[ZivcoPhoto]

Tom A.

You have inspired me to get my 21mm Biogon F2.8 ZM on the M2 and get out and shoot some film.

I know you have a 21mm F4.5 Nikon S (read Carl Zeiss Biogon for Contax IIA) mount lens, how would you rate that with the new 3.4 Elmar?

Thanks Tom

Bob

 

[ZivcoPhoto]

Tom A

I missed your Biogon shot below...other than the flare issue how would you compare it with the 3.4 Elmar?

Bob

 

[Tom A]

Tom,
You once wrote that you recall the W-Rokkor 21mm/4 not to be sharp. Is that something you are sure of? Thanks.

Raid. I tried a couple of them and neither one was particularly good - at least compared to the SA. It was also a bit 'clumsy" to use.
Tom

 

[Tom A]

Tom A

I missed your Biogon shot below...other than the flare issue how would you compare it with the 3.4 Elmar?

Bob

There is of course almost 54 years difference between the old Biogon 21f3.4 and the latest Super Elmar 21f3.4. Technology did march on, particularly with coatings and new glass.
I like the old 21f4.5 - but part is for sentimental reasons (just as with the 21 SA) but also for the rendering it has. Sharp and quite distinct look to it. The flare issue is not big, for a lens almost reaching "retirement" age. If you have direct sunlight hitting the front glass it can show a bit of veiling flare - but not enough to worry about. Just keep it in mind when using it.
If you are shooting color, I would suggest the Color Skopar 21f4 in S-mount instead. More modern glass, better coating and cheaper! For bl/w the Biogon looks very much like 50's and 60's - especially with films like TriX.
Biggest problem is filters and some kind of hood - mainly to protect the font element. It is also a heavy bugger - you know that there is a lot of brass and steel in it - and the aforementioned ergonomics - you spend a lot of time peering at aperture and focus ring trying to figure out which number is being referred to!
Tom

 

[ZivcoPhoto]

Thanks Tom

Yes I have the 21mm F4 CV in S mount and it also is outstanding......but the 21 F4.5 Biogon on my SP is a sentimental favorite....and I do like the old time look with color especially.

Vince advised me to use a step-up ring on the 21mm Biogon - 40.5 to 43mm for a quasi - type hood and I guess it is effective, I never take it off...I use a 43mm lens cap on the step up ring. The step up ring does not seem to vignette using the lens wide open.

Bob

 

[Tony Whitney]

Falling Water

Falling Water

Loved your Falling Water images, Tom! As a Wright junkie, it's always been my dream to go there, but it's a long way from Vancouver. When I do make it, I'll certainly have my Leica with me - if not with a Leica 21 mm (CV 15 mm maybe)...Tony Whitney

 

[menos]

Tom, thank you for this thread - very interesting, as I am more and more interested in 21mm.

Do you have an opinion on the Konica Hexanon Dual 21-35 f3.4-4 lens, that has been made around 2002 as a limited set?

I have been looking for a while now for my first 21mm lens, to try out and finally bought one of those Konica lenses as my very first 21mm.
I like the lens a lot so far, but have no idea, how well it compares to other offerings (especially the lenses, you named in the thread).

 

[Tom A]

Tom, thank you for this thread - very interesting, as I am more and more interested in 21mm.

Do you have an opinion on the Konica Hexanon Dual 21-35 f3.4-4 lens, that has been made around 2002 as a limited set?

I have been looking for a while now for my first 21mm lens, to try out and finally bought one of those Konica lenses as my very first 21mm.
I like the lens a lot so far, but have no idea, how well it compares to other offerings (especially the lenses, you named in the thread).

I had one of these for several years. Very large and a bit clumsy - but very good performance - particularly at the 21 setting. I found that I rarely used the 35 setting as I found it a bit slow. As a 21 it is on par with a 21f2.8 Asph Elmarit - which is high praise indeed. Mind you, you dont need to do weight training carrying it around!

 

[Tom A]

exanon 21-35 in 35 mode. TriX in PCK, Leica M2

 

[Tom A]

Hexanon 21-35 in 21 mode.

 

[Tom A]

Hexanon 21-35 in 35mm mode and @ f4. This was with Across 100, developed in PCK.

 

[menos]

Tom, thank you very much for your input and samples ;-)

This is my very first 21mm and I am eager, to know, how what I see in my sample compares to the giants of 21mm lenses.

I have to agree, that the Hexanon 21-35 is a bit unwieldy at first, but I do love the ergonomics of the focus tab and the really beautiful, effortless focussing.
The distance scale is also first rate (I think in meter and find the scale's readability better than one or the other Leica lens).
Finder obstruction is big - the front element and added hood is huge indeed.

I could only shoot the lens during the night so far.

How does the contrast of the lens compare to other 21mm lenses (I was surprised, how much shadow detail was there (I clipped some black, to add contrast in these photos)? All photos made with 21mm on M9.

Of course, I am curious on the differences to the new Leica 21 f3.4 🙂

 

[Tom A]

With 21's it is more the subject and user skill that counts. They are all very good - and, possibly one benefit you would see with the SE 21f3.4 versus the Hexanon 21-35 is the smaller size.
I think it is more important to "shoot" oneself in with an extreme angle lens than anything else anyway.
Like your stuff too - the two guys on the bicycles are a good example of using a 21 to give a bit drama to the image.
If you go to Flickr and use the tag "Leica Super Elmar 21mm f3.4 Aspherical" there is some 60-70 shots done with the lens in the last month.
Tom