The street photographer in his elements

OurManInTangier said:
Now there's a thread title in itself.

Fully agree regarding the percentage, 50% was a generous suggestion.
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'don't offer anything to the customer that you don't want them to pick' was always a truism in my studios, they would invariably select the one you'd just popped in to make the numbers up ... no matter how weak it was
 
Ned Bojic said:
You seem to be easily impressed by the hyped up names.

Winogrand left so many Tons of negatives after his death that have been analyzed by many curators. And the clear outcome was that it was absolute junk. There was an embarassment in the industry wether any of those shots should see the light of day.

I personally don't care about those guys. I'm very hard to impress. Take off the hype associated to them (including robert frank) and many photos just don't pass for anything close to "legendary".

Similarly, put a hyped-up photographer's name on my pictures and there you have some epic, historical photographs. Funny (pathetic, actually).

Quoting a photographer or saying his name in a conversation shouldn't magically make it more serious, all of a sudden.
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I'm not impressed by anything but good work. There is a reason why some can stand the test of time and are still relevant after their deaths. You can learn a lot from those that actually did it. And knowing your history can sure make you a lot less gullible. All the arguments for ignorance never cease to amaze me.

One thing to remember they were all unknown at one time. They usually had a real love for the art form and most had a respect and genuine love for others work as well. Unlike some that I read now that only have a love and an overblown perception of their own work.
 
It seems fashionable, these days, to be hypercritical of other photographer's work. It's almost as if people feel threatened that someone else will "make it" instead of them (or has made it under dubious circumstances).

I side more with airfrogusmc ... most who get the recognition deserve it. Sure, they all have a lot of bad photos... most photographers do. However, the "names" have all made some brilliant photos as well. Photography is not target shooting. Galleries and museums do not put information like "it took Mr. Winogrand 1,000 attempts to capture this masterpiece."
 
An old man with a large cartoon camera trying to photograph inside a bus...


To me there is more to that video than what is discussed in this thread... I see in that video self-parody, surrealism, post-modernism, comment on camera-phone ubiquity, the question of privacy, public transport's love affair with street photography - the greatest street shot is of the bus windows by Frank himself - and of course the only quality that all great street photographers have, curiosity.

Enjoy the clip.


Edit: Most of us get caught up with our own opinions that we fail to see that street photography is not about fame or fortune, Frank rejected both of those...
 
Colin Corneau said:
I can pretty much guarantee his camera is working just fine...the old 'fiddle with your camera' thing is a common way to blend in.
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Maybe back when Max Smart was on the TV after school it was common. "That old 'fiddle with your camera' thing" is even known to the woman sitting next to him. In fact, if there was a 5yo on the bus ...he'd say "Mommy that man is taking photos".

Everyone knows he is taking photos, they are being tolerant thats all and on the very edge of it too ...look at the guy with the briefcase. They can see he's an old man and they dont like it, you can see that too and so can Robert ...his fiddling went on way too long.
He's doing it wrong. He is not in control and yet the actions are his. These people paid to be there, they bought tickets and there is a right to privacy that they have a stronger sense of then when they are in the street. People are not the same and crammed together they will show him very quickly. RF is as unknown on the street as any of us, he is just another street photographer, a no name that once had the opportunities of another time but now he is on the same playing field as the rest of us.
So how does he compare? ...he is using the bus like a small pond to fish in the shallows. He is safe because he is elderly and the people will not harm him. The streets are dangerous for him now and he will be very selective about what (who) he photographs He relies on the people on the bus as much as he is fearful of them. He relies on someone coming to his defense as much as he risks offending someone else ...and he gets to sit down.

What did he take a photo of?, a wistful woman gazing out a window likely. Its the topic of even the most junior of street photographers ...or at least those game to take a photo on a bus. The light is changing constantly and I dont mean that as any kind of challenge, its the opportunity that the light will eventually be right for a photo. He wont get anything but he increases the potential by using film and a larger format camera. A confidence trick of nostalgia as well as the tool he is more familiar with.

Thats the amazing thing about street photography, it is supposed to be a game about the photograph and not the photographer at all, its why any street photographer can take a better photograph on that same day when RF takes his. RF's will be no better than anyone elses because he took it. We just afford him that respect. To have his lessons and all those dead voices shoved down our throats is too much when his is the weakest photo that day. Its stifling and gives us no where to find our own voices. They had their time, we are supposed to enjoy what they did...not live it over again as if we are possessed by their ghosts. Its 2015 the world hasn't ended yet. There are still things to be seen and photographed that are beyond the imagination of the past and the future of street needs to move forward so that we dont become the groundhog day some would like it to always be.

I think the distraction is to stop us from talking about the photographers here, like setting a fire at the back of the room while someone else was trying to speak.
 
Hsg said:
Edit: Most of us get caught up with our own opinions that we fail to see that street photography is not about fame or fortune, Frank rejected both of those...
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Absolutely. Winogrand said he was surprised to find anyone would be interested n his work. You should work first and foremost because it is your passion. And like Frank, Winogrand had a huge passion not only for working but for others work. He credits Frank and Evans as his to biggest influences.
 
jsrockit said:
It seems fashionable, these days, to be hypercritical of other photographer's work. It's almost as if people feel threatened that someone else will "make it" instead of them (or has made it under dubious circumstances).

I side more with airfrogusmc ... most who get the recognition deserve it. Sure, they all have a lot of bad photos... most photographers do. However, the "names" have all made some brilliant photos as well. Photography is not target shooting. Galleries and museums do not put information like "it took Mr. Winogrand 1,000 attempts to capture this masterpiece."
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Yep all that matters in the final work. Bresson said something like you have to milk a lot of cows just to get a little cheese.
 
oneANT said:
Everyone knows he is taking photos, they are being tolerant thats all and on the very edge of it too ...look at the guy with the briefcase. They can see he's an old man and they dont like it, you can see that too and so can Robert ...his fiddling went on way too long.

He's doing it wrong. He is not in control and yet the actions are his. These people paid to be there, they bought tickets and there is a right to privacy that they have a stronger sense of then when they are in the street.
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I'd be more concerned with the video camera.
 
oneANT said:
Maybe back when Max Smart was on the TV after school it was common. "That old 'fiddle with your camera' thing" is even known to the woman sitting next to him. In fact, if there was a 5yo on the bus ...he'd say "Mommy that man is taking photos".

Everyone knows he is taking photos, they are being tolerant thats all and on the very edge of it too ...look at the guy with the briefcase. They can see he's an old man and they dont like it, you can see that too and so can Robert ...his fiddling went on way too long.
He's doing it wrong. He is not in control and yet the actions are his. These people paid to be there, they bought tickets and there is a right to privacy that they have a stronger sense of then when they are in the street. People are not the same and crammed together they will show him very quickly. RF is as unknown on the street as any of us, he is just another street photographer, a no name that once had the opportunities of another time but now he is on the same playing field as the rest of us.
So how does he compare? ...he is using the bus like a small pond to fish in the shallows. He is safe because he is elderly and the people will not harm him. The streets are dangerous for him now and he will be very selective about what (who) he photographs He relies on the people on the bus as much as he is fearful of them. He relies on someone coming to his defense as much as he risks offending someone else ...and he gets to sit down.

What did he take a photo of?, a wistful woman gazing out a window likely. Its the topic of even the most junior of street photographers ...or at least those game to take a photo on a bus. The light is changing constantly and I dont mean that as any kind of challenge, its the opportunity that the light will eventually be right for a photo. He wont get anything but he increases the potential by using film and a larger format camera. A confidence trick of nostalgia as well as the tool he is more familiar with.

Thats the amazing thing about street photography, it is supposed to be a game about the photograph and not the photographer at all, its why any street photographer can take a better photograph on that same day when RF takes his. RF's will be no better than anyone elses because he took it. We just afford him that respect. To have his lessons and all those dead voices shoved down our throats is too much when his is the weakest photo that day. Its stifling and gives us no where to find our own voices. They had their time, we are supposed to enjoy what they did...not live it over again as if we are possessed by their ghosts. Its 2015 the world hasn't ended yet. There are still things to be seen and photographed that are beyond the imagination of the past and the future of street needs to move forward so that we dont become the groundhog day some would like it to always be.

I think the distraction is to stop us from talking about the photographers here, like setting a fire at the back of the room while someone else was trying to speak.
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Then the problem becomes weakest image to whom? Maybe RFs image is meant to fit into a larger body of work. MAybe those viewing don't recognize what he is doing because of their own lake of visual fluency.

Any art form can't move forward without the past. Whether it is a reaction to the past or an influence form the past it's there and will always be there. And like even great musicians one should learn from the past, take it all in and try and make it your own.

One thing most of the great had in common is their LOVE for the art form and their respect and love for those that came before. Not to copy or to repeat but to learn and grow from though knowledge.
 
jsrockit said:
It seems fashionable, these days, to be hypercritical of other photographer's work. It's almost as if people feel threatened that someone else will "make it" instead of them (or has made it under dubious circumstances).

I side more with airfrogusmc ... ."
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Surprisingly, so am I.

Yes, constant off-the-wall citation of famous photographers (correct, incorrect or simply implied) on millions of internet cites can completely devalue the meaning of that person. I, for one, hate reading this over and over again.
But Robert Frank indeed IS one of the influential photographers for generation, without a doubt. And anyone, who's trying to unknowingly invent the wheel, may be surprised to find out that it was already done and re-done (but better) by these giants. Robert Frank undoubtedly is one of such giants.
 
I found it interesting that someone else was surreptitiously recording Frank as he made images -- there's a 'meta' sort of statement there about our modern world and the ubiquity of recording and photographing everything.
 
Ned Bojic said:
I personally don't care about those guys. I'm very hard to impress. Take off the hype associated to them (including robert frank) and many photos just don't pass for anything close to "legendary".
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When tilting the horizon for coolness factor, that is something first popularized by Robert Frank... But the difference is that he didn't tilt the horizon for coolness factor.
 
Hsg said:
When tilting the horizon for coolness factor, that is something first popularized by Robert Frank... But the difference is that he didn't tilt the horizon for coolness factor.
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You're right, he did it to create tension, lead the eye or any dozens of visual reasons but cool was not one of those reasons.
 
airfrogusmc said:
You're right, he did to create tension, lead the eye or any dozens of visual reasons but cool was not one of those reasons.
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He was shooting from the hip most time out of necessity. His famous photo of the menacing cowboy in the bar could only have been shot from the hip.
 
Hsg said:
He was shooting from the hip most time out of necessity. His famous photos of the menacing cowboy in the bar could only have been shot from the hip.
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I think he, like Winogrand, through hundreds of thousand of exposures, like a sharp shooter that does aim but can shoot coin out if the air, became quit apt at photographing without always looking through the viewfinder. And that cowboy in the bar shot is just one of thousands he shot for the book.

There are many in the book that are composed and shot quite deliberate like the trolley shot, the first flag shot covering the persons face in the window, the second cowboy shot, the nanny and with baby, the flag shot and the tuba, to name a few.
 
airfrogusmc said:
I think he, like Winogrand, through hundreds of thousand of exposures, like a sharp shooter that does aim but can shoot coin out if the air, became quit apt at photographing without always looking through the viewfinder. And that cowboy in the bar shot is just one of thousands he shot for the book.

There are many in the book that are composed and shot quite deliberate like the trolley shot, the first flag shot covering the persons face in the window, the second cowboy shot, the nanny and with baby, the flag shot and the tuba, to name a few.
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... that implies he was working to some prior knowledge, surely you can't be suggesting that?
 
airfrogusmc said:
I think he, like Winogrand, through hundreds of thousand of exposures, like a sharp shooter that does aim but can shoot coin out if the air, became quit apt at photographing without always looking through the viewfinder. And that cowboy in the bar shot is just one of thousands he shot for the book.

There are many in the book that are composed and shot quite deliberate like the trolley shot, the first flag shot covering the persons face in the window, the second cowboy shot, the nanny and with baby, the flag shot and the tuba, to name a few.
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You can think of photography as a hand-to-eye ordination sport, but that is up to you.

Robert Frank changed photography, how he did it does not matter.
 
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