The UK is so hosed. And the US is catching up

[George S.]

I'm not saying that a lot of these new laws are good, just that this is nothing brand new.

There were abuses of the system here in the U.S. and the UK way before 9/11 and the implementation of the new eavsdropping laws. I'm not saying its OK, just that if there are people inclined to abuse their power, they'll find a way to do it even without our present laws. Yes, we now have the FBI and CIA able to share info on a limited scale. You don't think they did it before they were allowed to? They would just say the info came from a confidential informant and take that story to a friendly judge who wouldn't ask many probing questions of the agents and prosecutors.

Just as there will always be a tiny percentage of people who will agree that it's OK to jail an innocent person along the way, if you score a lot of guilty ones. That kind of thinking will always exist, sad to say, not only just in this anti terrorism climate. Just look at racism. Plenty of racist thinking does exist. It's an excruciationgly slow process to eradicate.

And yes, I'm not naiive enough to think that no one is unfairly convicted here in the US, it has happened thru the ages, but with new means, such as DNA evidence, I think it's happening less and less.

You can't compare the USA with what occurred in Communist China, it's too big of a leap.

The trouble is that history is full of incidents where what had been seen as benign, good behavior becomes an offense punishable by death. There had been a time when there was nothing wrong with being Jewish in Germany, to cite an extreme example. But if one looks at the Communist revolution in China and what happened to the so-called "intellectual elite," (people who had been doing nothing dishonest at all) one comes to the conclusion that "not doing anything dishonest" is not an effective defense.

I wish more people knew some history. We'd be able to avoid these offensive intrusions into personal lives that can serve no good.

In the US, there is an attitude among some people that it is better to jail an innnocent man than let a guilty man go free. These people claim to adghere to our "forefathers" ideals, yet are ignorant of the fact that the prevailing opinion of the founders of the US held that it is better to let a guilty man go free than imprison an innocent for even one day.

In the US there had been a careful separation of domestic intelligence (FBI, for ex.) and foreign intelligence (CIA, for ex.) The FBI inparticular seemed to be full of citizens very careful to maintain that separation to protect the rights of US citizens. They caught a whole lot of flack after Sept. 11, 2001 and that careful separation has been broken down to the detriment of what is claimed to be "the home of the free."

To butcher a famous and still timely quote, "those who willingly give up freedoms for safety deserve neither freedom nor safety."

 

[StefanJozef]

If you're not doing anything dishonest you got nothing to worry about...........try telling that to the family of Jean Charles de Menezes....he was the recipient, from London's finest, of 7 bullets in the head, in the London underground. His only crime was living in the same block of flats as a suspected bomber.

 

[George S.]

Since he lived in the same block, was that a case of mistaken identity?

If you're not doing anything dishonest you got nothing to worry about...........try telling that to the family of Jean Charles de Menezes....he was the recipient, from London's finest, of 7 bullets in the head, in the London underground. His only crime was living in the same block of flats as a suspected bomber.

 

[Micky D]

Since he lived in the same block, was that a case of mistaken identity?

The cops had the guy on the floor, face down, their knees in his back and gave him 7 shots in the head at point blank.

 

[John Lawrence]

If you're not doing anything dishonest you got nothing to worry about...........try telling that to the family of Jean Charles de Menezes....he was the recipient, from London's finest, of 7 bullets in the head, in the London underground. His only crime was living in the same block of flats as a suspected bomber.

I totally deplore what happened to Jean Charles de Menezes and in no way condone the actions of the Police which I feel are inexcusable, but I think you comment about his "only crime" is technically wrong.

I believe he had overstayed his visa and was therefore living in the UK illegally.

 

[Turtle]

Whatever is snooped on (and I do think certain marks have been overstepped) and the charges thrown at us, we do get a trial and we don't get tortured 😀

 

[George S.]

The cops had the guy on the floor, face down, their knees in his back and gave him 7 shots in the head at point blank.

You didn't asnswer my question. Did they mistake him for someone else, such as that terrorist from his block? If its a case of mistaken identity and overzealous or criminal actions on the part of the police, then it has nothing to do with the new laws on eavsdropping that is the topic of this thread.

 

[Micky D]

You didn't answer my question.

To be honest George, I don't know where he lived.
I believe he was shot because he had dark skin, was running in the subway and carrying a bag.

Some say he was running because he was late for his train.
Others say he was running from the police because his work visa had run out.

 

[dfoo]

...
I believe he had overstayed his visa and was therefore living in the UK illegally.

A capital crime if there ever was one!

 

[John Lawrence]

A capital crime if there ever was one!

I think I made it clear in my earlier message that in no way was I justifying, condoning or excusing the actions of the Police, which I find deplorable.

The intention of my post was to correct what I believed was an erroneous earlier statement.

 

[Migracer]

I told you so!

I told you so!

The last 8 years have been a living hell in the U.S. The government adopted an attitude from large corporations. "Everyone steals, if an employee is not steeling now he will be soon." Just replace one word and you have the policy of the last 8 years. Accusing any one that disagrees of being Un-patriotic. And there is no way to drop off the grid and still be able to interact with society. Live where there are no cameras, do not use any phones or electronic device, do not have electricity, do not post anything even in a newspaper, no divers license, no insurance, no vehicles, no job where you are paid in check, no bank account, did I miss any? Live that way and some one will turn you in anyway as a wacko!

I am breathing better already.

 

[dfoo]

I think I made it clear in my earlier message that in no way was I justifying, condoning or excusing the actions of the Police, which I find deplorable.

The intention of my post was to correct what I believed was an erroneous earlier statement.

Your point was that he had done some illegal, and therefore was not a good subject for "If you're not doing anything dishonest you got nothing to worry about". The fact that he wasn't actually shot because he overstayed his visa hasn't crossed your mind?

 

[John Lawrence]

Your point was that he had done some illegal, and therefore was not a good subject for "If you're not doing anything dishonest you got nothing to worry about". The fact that he wasn't actually shot because he overstayed his visa hasn't crossed your mind?

Unfortunately you have misinterpreted my two previous posts, either through lack of comprehension or deliberately.

As I suffer from a serious illness which sometimes makes it difficult to articulate my thoughts both written and verbal, I should be grateful if you would clarify whether:

You genuinely did not understand my two earlier posts (in which case I need to either ensure that any future posts I make are more coherent and lucid, or question whether I should be posting on this forum)

You deliberately misinterpreted my two posts, in which case I would ask why you would do such a thing?

The reason I ask is because I keep a log of such events, which the Consultant treating me uses to gauge the extent of deterioration of my faculties.

 

[WigglePig]

The world changed after 9/11.

No it didn't.

What did change, however, was the perception of the world from the US point-of-view.

 

[George S.]

No, there were and continue to be, real changes. It was inevitible, no matter your feelings toward the US.

 

[George S.]

The last 8 years have been a living hell in the U.S. The government adopted an attitude from large corporations. "Everyone steals, if an employee is not steeling now he will be soon." Just replace one word and you have the policy of the last 8 years. Accusing any one that disagrees of being Un-patriotic. And there is no way to drop off the grid and still be able to interact with society. Live where there are no cameras, do not use any phones or electronic device, do not have electricity, do not post anything even in a newspaper, no divers license, no insurance, no vehicles, no job where you are paid in check, no bank account, did I miss any? Live that way and some one will turn you in anyway as a wacko!

I am breathing better already.

Schhesch! Take your meds, I think you're overdue! The U.S. a living hell? What the hell is keeping you here then? No, a living hell would be prison and torture in say, Iran, or Iraq under Saddam, etc. Even prisoners in the US live under better conditions than my son does in his old, cramped, stuffy college dorm room.

 

[WigglePig]

No, there were and continue to be, real changes.

Would you care to elaborate? The world I see looks much the same as it did on September the 10th.

There may be changes in the US but that's not really the point as the US is not The World.

 

[Migracer]

I lost my birth Country forever.

I lost my birth Country forever.

Schhesch! Take your meds, I think you're overdue! The U.S. a living hell? What the hell is keeping you here then? No, a living hell would be prison and torture in say, Iran, or Iraq under Saddam, etc. Even prisoners in the US live under better conditions than my son does in his old, cramped, stuffy college dorm room.

I lost my birth country forever when I was 7 years old. I lost 400 years of my family history, family members and every possibility of ever returning. The US. was kind enough to grant 250,000 of us political asylum, permanent residence and citizenship. We got here with nothing except the clothes on our backs. We were able to live the American dream in 1971 I was drafted, survived, met the all American girl raised 8 kids.

You obviously do not understand how close we came to the edge. The suspension of all rules and freedoms in the name of National security is the first step towards moving to suspension of the constitution. It is still unknown how many American citizens are or were detained in-comunicado for no reason. I will always remember the day armed "Revolutionaries" broke down our door brandishing machine guns. The horror on my mothers face when I whipped out my toy six shooter at them.

For most of recent history the United States of America was looked on by the world as the moral leader, the country that most of the time did the right thing and the defender of the weak. We lost our way and became the school yard bully, ignoring all rules and refusing to provide any information on just about everything. In the past the US. has sheltered those innocents that were displaced or put in harms way because of our actions. We have done no such thing for the Iraqis. Oh by the way in case you missed the memo, Americans do not torture. I earned my right to be here what about you!

 

[George S.]

I did not question your right to be here, just your continued desire to stay in a place you describe as a "living hell".

 

[Olsen]

Typical inflammatory posting by this OP. What, there wasn't enough controversy going on here at RFF for you? Need to start something new so you could attack those who post here and don't agree 100% with you?

This "news" is at least 7 years old. The world changed after 9/11.

If you're not doing anything dishonest you got nothing to worry about. Governments have been watching their citizens and amassing files on them since at least WWII. There's just a few new ways to do it nowadays.

1)
I don't agree with you that a post here raising a political issue is 'inflammatory'. Please contribute to keep even political discussions here at a cool level.

2)
I do indeed agree with you that this spying on citizens is indeed nothing new. To take one example: It is nothing less of scandal that ex. DDR citizens are allowed to see their files while we in the West are deprived of seeing ours.

Even in a small nation like Norway with 4,7 million inhabitants, the files of our Secret Police numbered more than 50.000 names. At most, our Communist Party had some 7000 members, in the late 40'. Let alone that any political activity is allowed here in Norway as long it is not includes terrorism, and that to criminalize people out of their political beliefs is illegal.