the whoop-de-do about Leica

[FrankS]

Using a high quality tool, be it a knife, a cooking pan, a saw, a chisel, or a camera, brings along with it a certain feeling of satisfaction/joy/somethingorother that a more cheaply/poorly designed and built tool does not give. Leica is an example of such a tool. Leica is not alone among cameras in this sense; there are several other brands/models built over the years that embody this quality. (Leica has been one of the more consistent/longest-lived however.) 1950's Canon, Nikon, and Contax RF cameras also do it for me. These are all examples of tools that go beyond mere/simple functional competence in doing what they are supposed to do. These tools that are most satisfying to use are over-designed and built to a higher degree of quality than is really necessary, be they knives, cooking pans, saws, chisels, or cameras.

 

[Todd.Hanz]

it's a tactile experience.

Todd

 

[FrankS]

I think it's a head-game too. If you know you are using a tool that is top quality, you treat it with more respect (than a mere object) and with more consideration.

 

[dexdog]

These tools that are most satisfying to use are over-designed and built to a higher degree of quality than is really necessary, be they knives, cooking pans, saws, chisels, or cameras.

Not to take things out of context or be a PITA Frank, but I cannot agree with your general statement that over-designed tools are the most satisfying to use. While there are always contrary examples to any argument, I posit that in many cases old, yet sophisticated, designs using common materials are the most functional and satisfying to use. Examples of excellent design that have persisted through time include cast iron skillets, 120 year old Stanley woodworking planes, 1000 year old Japanese chisels, 200 year old tea kettles, 100 year old Winchester/Remington/Browning shotguns, and a number of camera designs. I do not believe that these products are over-designed, just very well designed to be functional, which is why they persist. To me, over-design implies an unneccesary focus on factors that are immaterial to performance, such as specifying a metal harder or stronger than needed to perform a task, or fininshing a surface to a 1/1000 inch tolerance when a 1/100 inch will suffice. Look at a cast iron skillet- a little texture is apparent, but get that skillet well-seasoned, and it makes no difference. Another example is fancy engraving on a shotgun- having the engraving in place does not make anybody a better shot, or get more ducks.

 

[dadsm3]

Mark may have a point there Frank. It seems like people are quite willing to sell and trade their M6/M6TTL/M7/MP's but few will part with their favourite M3....I still get more of that pleasurable "tactile experience" Todd mentioned with my M3.

 

[FrankS]

HI Mark, I agree that well-designed can also be inserted, but Leica is also an example of over-design, especially with respect to your tight tolerance point.

The classic Leicas, esp. post war screwmount, and M2,3,4's were designed and built during an era where pride in engineering and craftsmanship could triumph over the accountant's bottom-line. It was a halcyon time, where the ideas of planned obselescence and disposability had not yet been so commonplace.

 

[Todd.Hanz]

It was a halcyon time, where the ideas of planned obselescence and disposability had not yet been so commonplace.

well said!

Todd

 

[Kyle]

All I know is I prefer my M2 over my old Bessas and I prefer my Snap-on tools over Craftsmen...

 

[Todd.Hanz]

Snap-On wins in the tactile and sex appeal categories compared to "Crapsman" any day 🙂

 

[dexdog]

Frank, given that I do not have any leica gear, and therefore cannot have an opinion, I accept your position on the leica cameras. OTOH, tactile experience, ergonomics and the sheer pleasure experienced by using a quality product is another story. Example: I used to think that a camera case was a camera case was a camera case, until I bought a used Luigi case for my Bessa R2C. The Luigi case is a wonderful, nay gorgeous, product that enhances the user experience. Given the way that many folks talk about their leicas, I imagine that this type of experience is part of the appeal of the leica. It is fun to use luxury goods, but they do not necessarily perform better.

 

[FrankS]

Mark, that's exactly it. (the Luigi case analogy) I see from your avatar blurb that you're a Contax and Canon RF user. Same deal as Leica. I even named those brands in my original post along with Leica. I am not a Leica snob. I am a RF camera quality snob in the sense that I appreciate quality (but do not look down on others using whatever rocks their boat.)

 

[raid]

A similar arguement would apply to the Mercedes SL cars from the past. They were over-engineered and the goal was to make the ultimate sport car in the world. I know a MB electrician in Germany who told me that the classic MB SL cars had over 200km of wiring in the car. The newer designed SLK are most likely more efficient and better cars, but they are no SL cars. The classic cars are a pain to repair, but they seem to last forever, and they are simply awesome to admire and use. Now let's talk about Leicas.


Raid

 

[FrankS]

My vintage BMW motorcycles are also well engineered and over engineered. As well as going for ever and ever, once they wear out, they were designed and engineered to be rebuilt and to keep going. Can't say the same for the British and Japanese bikes of the same era, even though the British bikes have beautiful aesthetics and the Japanese bikes out-performed everything else.

 

[dexdog]

Frank, one of the most refreshing things for me about RFF is that we harbor very few, if any, leica snobs. The leica folks on this site are really interested in photography, rather than interested in owning leicas. I also concur with the
"whatever trips your hammer" philosophy that you espouse WRT camera choice. Yeah, I prefer canon and contax gear, but understand that other RF cameras, such as nikons and leicas best meet the needs of other folks. I used to own a nikon S2, but preferred the contax, so I sold the nikon. However, I am occasionally tempted to buy a nikon SP, only because I borrowed one once, and it was a joy to use, even if it did focus backwards. The only thing holding me back is that they sell for more money than I am willing to pay. Great cameras and lenses, no doubt.

This conversation leads me to beleive that I should change my signature.

 

[FrankS]

I'm number ONE! on Henry Scherer's waiting list, with 2 Contax IIa cameras. The last camera I bought was a Bessa. Yep, I'm ecclectic!

 

[Stephanie Brim]

I had a discussion about the fact that rangefinder users seem to really appreciate good craftsmanship in other things with my boyfriend recently. He seemed to agree with me on that point. I appreciate good cooking untensils because I know what a complete pain in the ass it is to cook with pans that are less than well built and knives that don't stay sharp no matter what you do. He also noted to me that I have a Mac instead of a PC even though it cost me more for the equivalent, I have a Canon rangefinder body instead of a Zorki/Fed/Mir, I have a dedicated film scanner instead of a flatbed, and with a job looming on the horizon I have plans, finally, for an M2 and Summicron.

People who have used a Leica seem to appreciate better things. People who have used other 50's rangefinders seem to be the same way. I haven't used a Leica yet, but I can feel the allure of them. It may or may not better my photography, but I think it will change the way I think about it. The Canon changed the way I think about photography as well. I've become more serious in general since I got that camera. I think that a Leica, once and for all, will cement in me the drive and passion for photography in me that, as it is, still comes and goes. It sounds stupid, and I can't explain why I feel that way, but there's just something.

*shrug*

 

[back alley]

gee, i took a nap and when i woke it i was in photo.net...

 

[dexdog]

I'm number ONE! on Henry Scherer's waiting list, with 2 Contax IIa cameras. The last camera I bought was a Bessa. Yep, I'm ecclectic.

Congratulations Frank! Getting to #1 on the Henry list takes at least a year.



{QUOTE=backalley} gee, i took a nap and when i woke it i was in photo.net...

joe, go back to sleep. Several of us were having a civil conversation about camera preference. I think that we all would concur that camera preference is a pesonal matter, and that RFF is a great and non-judgmental place to discuss cameras and their uses. Peace, love, dove, dude...

 

[back alley]

didn't realize i was being un-civil mark.

 

[dexdog]

joe, I did not mean to imply that you were not being un-civil. It is just that normally I associate being at p.net with nasty, ugly and uncivil conversations. Sorry to give you the wrong impression.

No offense intended, joe.